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Obama vs. Beantown

and furthermore, since it is somewhat related to the topic, I'd like to come out of the closet and announce that I'm proud of both Beantown and Archie Moses for the way they have learned to handle the "slings and arrows" that some of us frequently dish out. For the most part, they do a great job resisting the urge to engage in "bro-biting" or reacting in ways that further fan the flames and I think they deserve credit for that. I'll probably get a gazillion negative rep points for saying this, but so be it.
 
Bean (and anyone else)

You have said that you support "civil unions" for partners of the same sex. Speaking strictly in the legal sense as far as property rights, tax laws, family laws and whatever other areas of statute may be involved, does this mean that you would support a "civil union" that is 100% the equal to what is now called "marriage" - in other words, if the word "marriage" were taken out of the equation and replaced with "civil union" would you be in favor of this type of relationship for both same and different sex partners?

I'm just trying to figure out where it is that the line in the sand is drawn on this issue for you.

Moe, let me list some things for you and maybe this will help understand me better.

-I believe homosexual relations should have 100% the same rights as heterosexuals. Even with adoption. In a perfect world I would love every child to have a mother and father. But there are too many children needing loving parents that this makes my perfect world an impossibility.


-I believe the term "marriage" has always been assoctiated with as a hetorosexuality and family. Family is where I believe marriage has biological meaning. Since heterosexual relations are the only ones to be able to create genetic families that go beyond generations.

-I believe one of the biggest social problems is the disrespect of the power of reprodcution. I believe pushing the relations to be viewed as "equal" takes us further into this direction. I think we are better off accepting and acknowledging all our differences.

-Also Moe in response to my "grammar issues". 95% of my posts come from my Iphone from work (like this one) while I am doing other work. So I dont really re-read anything I wrote. So there probably are quite a bit of mistakes.
 
thanks Bean. In response to your first point, I think we probably agree more than we disagree. The next two points are where I'd say we probably have major areas of disagreement. As to your last point, I do agree that it can be difficult to be completely coherent under various circumstances, and I realize errors and things do occur. But for whatever the reason, I think the way you express yourself on certain topics adds to the difficulty others may have in following your reasoning.
 
I just find it odd that I have been getting slaughtered by assuming "left leaning" folks for an opinion that parallels one of the most liberal President we have ever had.

"the most liberal President we have ever had"

please tell me you arent serious...
 
Moe, do you agree for the push to have everyone view these relationships as "equal" or the same?....or do you believe it is better to recognize our differences and embrace them?
 
Moe, do you agree for the push to have everyone view these relationships as "equal" or the same?....or do you believe it is better to recognize our differences and embrace them? and then bigotedly legislate against the difference that the majority names and defines?

fixed.
 
Why can't I leave this alone? Here is a little play-by-play of Beanturd's philosophy...

Moe, let me list some things for you and maybe this will help understand me better.

-I believe homosexual relations should have 100% the same rights as heterosexuals. Even with adoption. In a perfect world I would love every child to have a mother and father. But there are too many children needing loving parents that this makes my perfect world an impossibility.

His thinking starts from a perfect (edenic?) whole: the world as it should be. These ideas are clearly religiously inspired (probably Mormonism since the emphasis is on family and he makes repeated reference to genealogies). We can also probably assume that he sees his family, his race, and his self as the defining SUBJECT of power with respect to the structure of family and it's importance in the human story. In other words, if everyone were to follow those rules, which he embodies and ultimately defines, then the world would in fact be a perfect place and this issue would be null; it seems that the issue of homosexuality may just vanish. Jumping ahead, because the world doesn't follow these prescriptions it is flawed. We have fallen from Eden. Because of this beanturd is, from his position of moral authority, deciding that he should open his heart to the lesser and let them love each other and the less fortunate children born outside of his plan for nature (please note the position of power he is in, and how many times I am forced to write the words "he" and "his". Everybody else in this story gets their name from him: "homosexuals", "sinners", etc.). Note: his whole argument is pinned on the perfection of the original whole. This kind of metaphysics was proven to be entirely irrational back in the 17th century as a consequence of Spinoza's proofs. P.S. that was a LONG time ago.

-I believe the term "marriage" has always been assoctiated with as a hetorosexuality and family. Family is where I believe marriage has biological meaning. Since heterosexual relations are the only ones to be able to create genetic families that go beyond generations.

here Beanturd is employing a semantic hook. The very essence of the word "marriage" is supposed to smack me across the face with some kind of truth. Well, there has never been a word in the history of language that maintained a static meaning. If it is important to people's experiences, then it is alive and re-interpreted constantly. Let's not forget that in the US the legal definition of the word "person" at one point didn't include people of African descent. Privileging the essence of a word is, in a word, retarded.

We jump from the essence of "marriage" to the essence of "family". At this point every problem with his restrictive and incorrect assumptions of biology come to the fore. See my previous posts.

-I believe one of the biggest social problems is the disrespect of the power of reprodcution. I believe pushing the relations to be viewed as "equal" takes us further into this direction. I think we are better off accepting and acknowledging all our differences.

This first statement is a puzzling (and, I suspect, incomplete) statement. I'd guess it is loaded with religious, social, and political opinions against anybody that dares to tread on straight sex in any context. This is tied to his concept of Eden and vision of nature: if people respected reproduction in that way, then, bam! problem solved. Then, he confuses "equal" with respect to the law with "equal" in body, feeling, and (I have to take it here) purity. This is obviously an egregious political/legal error. How empty does this last sentence feel to you? Let's acknowledge our difference so that I can show you what is special and what is not!
 
A philosophy that provides a true acceptance of difference doesn't start from the idea of an original, pure WHOLE. With respect to the issue of sexuality that means that we must throw away the general categories of "heterosexual" and "homosexual" because, logically speaking, that would be making this same error: the general category, or whole, subsumes the particular experience. In other words, there is no "heterosexual" and there is no "homosexual"; every body has different desires. You can imagine a spectrum ranging from hetero- to homo-sexual if it makes it easier for you. In this vision the outer edges become logical operators, impossible to achieve fully: everybody is somewhere in between. Desires, I can assure you, are capable of taking many different shapes. Our ideologies constrain them. In a different time and place, Beanturd would get turned on by different things; these different things would be more or less on the side of the masculine ideal that he currently strives for.

In this context, the desire for life-long partnership and even the desire to raise offspring can/should be seen as a completely different problem with a mind-blowingly large number of solutions depending on the context.
 
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