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On God and Religion

AtheistPreacher

Well-Known Member
Most of you probably know that I'm a graduate student in philosophy of religion. I've just finished my MA at the University of Chicago Divinity School, and I'm starting PhD work at Claremont School of Theology (in southern California) in late August.

With all the religion and religion-related topics that come up on this board, I thought it was time I posted something about my views on God and religion. After all, if I don't pontificate once in a while, then why did I bother accruing over $30,000 in student loans (so far)? This is going to be long, and I expect that few will bother to read it all, but if nothing else it gives me something to point to when people ask me about this stuff. Much of it is adpated from various papers I've written here at UChicago, but I've kept technical stuff to a minimum, and I've tried to be as engaging as possible. If you don't fall asleep halfway through, I think I've succeeded.

To be right upfront about my leanings, I'm an ex-Catholic (my mother's religion) who attended 13 years of Jesuit schooling. I believe in God, but it's a somewhat different God than the traditional Christian conception. My primary influence is process theologian Charles Hartshorne, who stressed rationalism above all else; my favorite quote of his is: "A theological paradox, it appears, is what a contradiction becomes when it is about God rather than something else, or indulged in by a theologian or a church rather than an unbeliever or a heretic." Lastly, in religious matters I am driven primarily by teleological concerns -- that is, questions of meaning to life.

In any case, here I go. Thoughts on anything below are, of course, welcome.

Introduction

It would be fairly safe to assert that science and the fruits of the scientific method dominate the modern world. We have better technology, and a better knowledge of how the world works, than at any other time in human history. The internet and other communication technologies have also brought humanity in closer conversation than ever before, allowing different cultures to exchange ideas and beliefs in a search for truth and human progress. Given this picture, an extremely naive atheist might have cause to wonder why provincial and supernaturalistic religious beliefs continue to persist as strongly as they do.

I would argue that the primary reason that religion continues to exert such an influence on the human heart is that it has traditionally served -- and largely continues to serve -- as the guardian of human meaning. Great as the powers of science may be, it can only tell us about empirical facts; it cannot tell us their meaning. So while science can tell us a great deal of things about anything in particular, it cannot tell us why anything in particular matters. It is the task of religion to orient human beings within a culture, to give conceptual justifications to emotional experiences, and to "translate general ideas into particular thoughts, particular emotions, and particular purposes; it is directed to the end of stretching individual interest beyond its self-defeating particularity." And it is ultimately this search for meaning which makes us human.

To summarize the sections that follow: (1) humanity is defined by a rational self-consciousness which craves an ultimate and eternal meaning to its existence; (2) the traditional supernaturalistic conception of God as an all-powerful and immutable being has greatly hindered this quest for meaning; (3) that freedom is the absolute principle revealing the social nature of existence; (4) God, if we are to serve It, must be construed as a being which grows and changes; (5) that the only way humanity can achieve eternal significance is through God; (6) that human creativity fundamentally emerges through a dialectic between self and culture; (7) that real change and real human progress requires a particular tenacity of faith and hope. The concluding section will tie all these ideas together through an examination of the notion of human "progress," and whether such an idea is both intelligible and feasible.

Humanity's need for ultimate purpose

Humans possess what may be called an original confidence in the meaning and worth of life. Without such confidence, humans have no good reason not to curl up on the floor and die. Whether or not we can specify any general reason or purpose, every person has what Paul Tillich would call an "ultimate concern," a purpose for which they live their lives. And in the absence of a clearly defined ultimate concern, a person's activities tend to center on finding such an ultimate concern -- what Viktor Frankl would call "the will to meaning."

But there is a big problem which humans tend to run up against in their search for meaning -- the inevitability of death. Faced with the prospect of death, human beings cannot fail to ask themselves how their lives can matter if everything ends in the same way. To live for the betterment of family, country, or humanity itself is only a very partial solution; there is no guarantee that human life will persist forever. And even if it did, we have only to look around to discover that the vast majority of humanity is not remembered at all -- some leave gravestones weathered smooth, and others leave pieces in museums or books on shelves, but for most people death brings almost total obliteration in a very few generations. Faced with such facts, where are we to look for meaning? One has only to read a play like Waiting for Godot to see the kind of existential angst that often characterizes modernity; Vladimir and Estragon wait earnestly for a man who will never come, a person who they hope will give them a purpose which they do not have and cannot find.

The restlessness of Vladimir and Estragon in Beckett's play illustrates the human conviction that there is something more to life than simply being born, living for a number of years, and dying. Postmodernism as a whole has insisted that there is no basis for such a hope, that we ultimately must invent our own meanings, or somehow be content with the notion that there is no meaning to anything. Human beings refuse to conceive of themselves as only transiently useful, whether they admit to such a conviction or not. We all hold to the conviction that we are building or contributing to something definitive, something which will persist even when we are dead and gone. And it is this final ineradicable confidence in the worth of our existence which we call "God." In whatever religion we may choose, God (or gods, or the absolute principle, or whatever) is the beginning and end of human meaning. God (or a prophet or priest speaking for God) tells us what we should be doing, and why we should do it. And whether or not a religion promises subjective immortality for the believer, the eternal nature of God Itself provides the eternal significance of life which human beings inevitably seek. Our lives are meaningful because we serve God, and God, in turn, will live forever, lending our finite lives a meaning they could not otherwise have.

The problem of an immutable God

Following from the above, the next question naturally becomes: how exactly do we go about serving God? And it is at this point at which we discover -- at least with the traditional Christian conception of God -- that that there is a rather serious problem: there is no way for human beings to actually serve God. Christian tradition has continued to assert God's immutability (that is, God's unchanging nature) because it is assumed that God is a being perfect in every way, both in power and in goodness, and that any change which God might undergo could, therefore, only diminish Him. Unfortunately, the logical conclusion to be drawn from such a conception is that God is as little affected by our best actions as by our worst. If God is indeed a statically complete perfection, then we can do nothing either to increase or diminish Him, and so all our actions must in fact be wholly indifferent to Him. Such a God can provide no consolation or peace of mind in our existential distress, but merely stands with His back eternally turned to the world.

How did this conception arise in the first place? One can only speculate as to the very early origins, but one clue is the idea of God as King, a metaphor which persists in Christianity today. Just as a king wields power over his subjects, God, as one who is perfect in power, wields omnipotent power over all creation. But, as Charles Hartshorne is at pains to point out, the notion of omnipotence as the power to prevent anything undesirable from happening is a logical absurdity. Power is a relational concept; it is not exerted in a vacuum, but always by some entity A over some other entity B. To assert that God can do absolutely anything without fail is to assert that God ultimately has all the decision-making power in the universe, that any decision by another agent is not really the agent's decision at all, because it is God who ultimately allows it -- in this conception, no agent can make a decision which God cannot overrule.

In order for a being to have the sort of power that traditional theism has asserted God possesses, the entity over which power is exerted must be totally determinable by some other entity. In the case of a lifeless object like a billiard ball, this is indeed the case -- when it is hit by a second billiard ball, it has no choice in whether or not it moves. But in the case of decision-making individuals, the case is quite different. Consider the following example: a child is told by his parent that he must go to bed. The child, as a self-conscious, decision-making individual, can always make the decision to not go to bed. The parent may then respond by picking up the child bodily and carrying him to his room, but nothing can force the child to alter his decision to resist the parent's directive. It is only the body of the child that can be coercively controlled by the body of the physically stronger parent; the child's free will remains intact. To control the child totally could be nothing but a form of mind control.

The omniscience of future events which often goes hand-in-hand with God's supposed omnipotence creates much the same problem. If God knows that I will do A rather than B or C, then in what sense could I be said to be responsible for doing A? The idea that I chose between genuine alternatives would be an illusion, for I could not have done anything differently.

Moreover, the attribution of omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence to God in the Christian tradition leads to the notorious (and ultimately unsolvable) riddle of the problem of evil: if God wants only the best for us, and has all the power necessary to eliminate suffering from the world, why does God not do so? The only way that Christian theologians have “solved” the problem of evil is to deny that genuine evil exists – that no matter what happens, things will ultimately, somehow, turn out for the best. But if this is the claim, it seems to go against our “hard core common sense” notions that evil is real, that some things really happen that do not ultimately make the world better, and that to deny this idea is only to deny verbally what we affirm in practice.

In the end, the idea of an omnipotent God is simply a hopeless misconception of the divine. Ordinary rulers delegate decision-making, and other authority figures, such as parents and teachers, do not wish to deprive their charges of self-determination -- to do so would ultimately lead to the non-existence of the pupil, who would essentially become an automaton. Hartshorne offers a profound insight when he notes that "it is a bad model of deity to liken it to those who wish to be heard but not to hear, to speak but not to listen. This is the benevolent despot ideal that Kant avoided in his political theory but not in his theology." It is this conception of a God who "speaks but does not listen" which modern secularism finds so repugnant; it goes against the conviction that what we do here and now in the world really matters. If God cannot in any way be affected by what we do, then to speak of serving God can be nothing but an equivocation. Love is often described as the desire to give rather to receive; if we are never permitted to give to God, than He does less for us than the poorest of humans.

In summation, in order to solve the problems which the traditional Christian formulation of God has created, two things must be done: (1) God must be re-defined as limited in power in the sense that there are other entities who really make decisions in the world, thus re-claiming freedom, and (2) God must be re-defined in such a way that it us possible for us to serve It. Only by doing these two things can the actions of human beings attain an eternal significance.

Freedom as the absolute principle

Traditional Christian theists often suggest that it seems a perfectly coherent idea that God in fact does have all the power, and either makes all the decisions while only seeming to provide freedom, or perhaps has the power to intervene but decides not to use it. Yet the idea that there are actualities totally devoid of power is pure inference, since all must admit that we seem to have such power -- freedom is one of the “hard-core common sense” notions which we may deny verbally, but not in practice. Moreover, supposing that we in fact have no power leads to the conclusion that we do not exist as real entities in any meaningful sense – our actions cannot be meritorious if they are ultimately performed by an alien hand. With freedom, of course, comes risk -- the risk of evil. Yet the risks of freedom are ultimately inseparable from freedom itself. This is not to say that evil itself is necessary, since there is always a chance that the best possible outcome will be actualized, but the bare possibility of evil is metaphysically necessary to existence. Without it, there could be both no risk and no value in the world, but only puppets dancing to divine strings.

Thus, freedom for process philosophy is the absolute principle revealing the social structure of existence, a freedom which is fundamental not just to human beings, but to the very atoms. Of course, humans have a much higher degree of freedom than other known entities, yet cells and electrons also have some degree of the same. Their decisions are certainly not conscious, at least not in any way that we would normally define the term, and yet they behave in ways not fully predictable by causal laws. We cannot predict the way any particular electron will move. An actual entity in this philosophical system is defined by its relations to other actual entities; it is a synthesis of its experiences and reactions to other actual entities surrounding it. A real thing is just that which forces the rest of the universe to in some way conform to it; that is to say, if theoretically a thing made strictly no difference to any other entity, it could not be said to really exist. Thus, while freedom is the absolute principle, it is always limited by the social structure of existence -- each actual entity must conform to the settled conditions of the world around it. An entity's uniqueness and individuality arise from its own self-determination as to just how it will take account of the world.

A process conception of God

The kind of philosophical acrobatics which many Christian theologians undertook in order to maintain the immutability of God are perhaps no better exemplified than in a passage from Anselm's Proslogion, chapter 8. In it, Anselm is trying to square the idea that God must be compassionate and merciful (because it is better to be compassionate than not) with the idea that God is impassible, cannot change, and therefore does not feel emotion. His solution is that we as creatures feel the effects of God's mercy, and yet God Himself remains totally unmoved. It is as if God loved us, but all that can really be said is that benefits flow from Him to us -- it is what Hartshorne called the "benefit-machine" view of divine love. As Hartshorne pointedly states: "the sun produces crops, as though it cared about our hunger and its appeasement; in reality it cares not. So with God. Is this satisfactory?"

What is missed in these types of strained theological rationalizations about God's nature is that change is not necessarily bad. One obvious example of a good kind of change is an increase of aesthetic enjoyment. If a person sees a new play, or a new movie, and enjoys the experience -- is somehow enlarged by it -- then we would call that an essentially good kind of change. And yet to speak of an absolute maximum of aesthetic richness is contradictory and meaningless, for there can always be another being, in another time, which provides a new and unique type of aesthetic that the universe has never seen before. This is exactly the same problem as that of talking about the largest possible number -- there can never be one, because we can always add more zeroes. Hence, it is simply impossible for God to have experienced the maximum of aesthetic value.

The solution is a "dipolar" conception of deity, one in which God has a maximum of the positive values than are logically capable of maximization (such as being maximally loving, just, kind, wise), while recognizing that there are species of perfection, such as aesthetic enjoyment, which are necessarily never-ending, as they are always capable of increase. Rather than the vague term "perfect" -- which always requires some standard of perfection, whether such a standard is stated or not -- dipolar theism asserts that God is unsurpassable by any being other than Itself. To say that God has grown by experiencing something new is not to say that It was imperfect before, as if the universe was an empty glass and God's knowledge of it was the water which had just now filled the empty space and reached the top; rather, the universe is like a glass that keeps growing and expanding, and the water is always at the top. As omniscient, God's knowledge is exactly equivalent to the factual content of the universe, and grows along with it. Or, said another way, God's knowledge of what exists is always relative to what actually exists, and since not all things have yet existed, God cannot know them. In this way, God can include quantity in Its quality without the contradictions inherent in either a quality without quantity, or a quality with unsurpassable quantity.

Far from a God which influences people but can never be influenced by them, the process conception of God is one in which God is supremely influenced by everything in the universe. This assertion is rooted in the conviction that it is "he who is most adequately influenced by all [who] may most appropriately exert influence upon all." We would never praise a ruler who was total unaffected by his constituency; why, then, would we praise this quality in God?

Such a conception of God has other advantages, not the least of which is that it makes intelligible how there can be an objective past. After all, we have no real access to the past other than imperfect memory, and if there was a thing which no one remembered, how could it be said to have really existed? But the notion of a God whose knowledge grows along with the universe allows us to assert that there is an objective past, because there will always be one being -- God -- who remembers all of the events of history with perfect clarity. It is a matter of practical necessity that we believe in the past as indestructibly real, otherwise we would have no reference for our present actions, yet it is the idea of God's knowledge that makes sense of the notion of historical truth. And it is this notion that God is supremely influenced by all, and that It perfectly retains all of our experiences, that leads to the telos of humanity.
 
The telos of humanity

Stated simply and succinctly, the telos of humanity is to serve God by contributing some value to God which It would not otherwise have -- to contribute our experiences to the divine enjoyment as singular and unique beings in the universe. The process of life in this view becomes a symbiotic, dialectical relationship, in which God experiences and enjoys the richness of experience of finite creatures, while the creatures attain objective immortality through the influence they exert on the divine. God, being changed as It is by our actions, interacts with the world in a subtly different way because of those changes, and, being eternal, God lends everlasting significance to our finite actions and finite lives. The idea that we can really enrich the divine may seem absurd to some, but this is in fact "the absurdity at the heart of theistic faith" -- that we are each loved and cherished by God to a degree beyond our comprehension. And if it seems that the notion of our actions being ideally remembered by God is not enough incentive to perform good actions, we need only observe how important we view it to be remembered positively by other members of our human communities, even in their imperfect human way. All this considered, "the innermost secret of existence, it may be, is that the existence of anything other than God consists of its enjoyed contribution to the divine awareness."

But what, one might ask, is the significance of humans specifically as self-conscious creatures? The most basic answer is that a higher degree of freedom allows for greater degrees of value, just as an entity that has no choice in anything it does can have no value. The freedom which we as humans have is what allows us to enjoy the experiences we value most highly. In comparison, an amoebae experiences very little enjoyment, while a cat exists somewhere between the richness of human experience and the relatively dull lives of microorganisms. But while we can enjoy experience beyond the feline imagination, cats are not subject to the intensity of pain that humans are -- as David Griffin pithily notes, few cats commit suicide. Freedom, as noted earlier, carries risks -- the greater the freedom, the greater the value, but also the greater the potential for evil and suffering. Yet the aim of a morally good being is more accurately stated positively rather than negatively; that is, we should seek primarily to produce good rather than to avoid suffering, otherwise the creation of beings with a high capacity for rich experience would never occur.

A more complex and nuanced answer to the significance of being human has to do with the special nature of human beings as rational self-conscious creatures. There is a special kind of interaction and growth which humans experience within their own complex socio-cultural situations, a growth which takes place as a dialectic between the self and the societal ideal. This special type of human activity is the subject of the next section.

The dual nature of humanity -- the dialectic of individuals and culture

One of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's most potent metaphors is his idea of human self-conscious reflection as the "boiling point" of neurological evolution. For Teilhard, evolution is directed toward creatures of higher and higher neural complexity, always moving toward a further augmentation of consciousness. But in man, the character of consciousness underwent a "change of state," in the same way that boiling water, in changing from a liquid to a gas, changes its character while retaining the same temperature. The rise of self-conscious creatures was the sudden and revolutionary change of evolution becoming aware of itself as an object. And with the rise of self-consciousness also came abstractions and normative ideals -- the stuff of human society. And it is society, as much as anything, that makes any particular human being who she or he is.

Humans experience a duality of self -- an experience of two different forces within ourselves, sometimes united, sometimes not. Many religions have taken this phenomenon as evidence of the existence of a soul, something which persists beyond bodily death. And while this supernatural explanation may be viewed askance by some in modern times, the phenomenon itself is real enough. But the duality of the self actually consists in the difference between the individual self and the collective wisdom of society. This is not to say that society is some kind of external spiritual force "out there." "Society" can only exist in individual minds, and manifests itself as a normative ideal, spurring the individual both to live up to its standards and to contribute to the society which informed it. But it does really exist, in some sense at least, beyond the self, in the minds of others in the same culture. Though subtly different in each person, the ideals of society exist in every individual, growing organically with the change and eventual replacement by progeny of the individual minds of which it is composed, so that it transcends any one individual even while remaining totally dependent on them.

The power of society and culture on human minds is incapable of overstatement. It is what makes intelligible the notion of a soldier sacrificing himself to defend his country's flag, because for him it is far more than a bit of cloth, but stands for all the things which he holds dear. A less extreme but even more important example than the notion of self-sacrifice is the little sacrifices which people make every day for the things they believe. Society may exalt the powers of humankind, but it tends to be hard on the individuals of whom it is composed; it demands our willingness to occasionally suspend our own wants and desires for the collective good. This is the "asceticism that is inherent in all social life and destined to survive all mythologies and dogmas; it is an integral part of all human culture." Without this ability to occasionally suppress our own needs for the needs of the whole, society simply could not function.

Moreover, society is the ideal for which its members strive, the collective standard of perfection, which manifests itself not just as a romantic dream far away in time and space, but as the impersonal reason which all in the society employ. Indeed, "impersonal" here is exactly the right word, for the reason of society comes from no person in particular, but from the whole of their social history up to the present moment. At any one time, the collective consciousness of society encompasses all of known reality by definition, which allows it to provide frameworks for interpreting unknown phenomena.

But most fascinating of all is the way societies and cultures change and grow. Collective ideals, imprinted upon individuals, become themselves individualized as each person leaves her or his own imprint upon them, and these changes are passed along as the thought and action of each individual encounters and influences others. It is the unique power of self-conscious individuals to actively seek to change societal constructions, and we all make our own subtle contributions, contributions which interact and combine to create the stuff of social evolution, an evolution which is often invisible at the time but is all too obvious when looking back.

Any one individual is finite, with a limited pool of experience dwarfed by the collective experience of the society as a whole, and yet there is a tendency for individuals to become rigid in their outlooks. To quote a common expression: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." A young person is supremely curious and open to being influenced in her views by whatever people or things present themselves (since she as yet has little or no experience to tell her otherwise), but an older person tends more and more to impose her views upon the situation. Such imposition is not always bad; it is part of the way in which social evolution takes place. However, there is a point at which an individual personality can become rigid to the point of stagnation -- a stagnation which is overcome through the person's death and replacement by progeny, whether such progeny be biological or merely intellectual. The child is greatly influenced by the parent, but also tempered by social norms and the views of others, as well as possessing her own unique and indefinable spark of originality, all combining to create an entirely new outlook on the world. Thus the legitimate interests of the parent survive and are given a new relevance in the people she leaves behind.

In this way, the deaths of individuals after contributing their own unique value to the social experience drives social evolution and progress. Much as the bodies of genetically engineered plants are prone to be wiped out by a single strain of a disease, the progressive death and replacement of individuals with others who have new perspectives helps to shield particular projects, interests, and values from irrelevance, since they are continually changed and strengthened by their graded entry into new social situations. Death eliminates the self-interested concerns of individuals while their social influence on survivors is maintained, and the world marches on.

We can say, then, that individual lives are directed toward an augmentation and refinement of the collective good -- that is, society and social ideals. As long as there is pain and suffering in the world, there will always be room for improvement, room for us to try to leave the world a better place than we found it.

There are remarkable similarities between the Durkheimian notion of society and the process conception of God. Durkheim may have been reductionist in his philosophy, but his descriptions of the interplay between individual and culture remain some of the most evocative ever written. And, read with the right lens, his work is a striking example of the kind of dialectic which process theology asserts to be taking place between God and the world. The special task of humanity is to build their own ideals, together -- ideals which will influence the divine and all of life thereafter.

The will to believe

In an article titled "An Anatomy of Hope," Robert Mills states the following: "In hoping, we are participants in what we hope for, thereby establishing some possibility for the realization of the hope. We project ourselves into larger realities that transcend our private worlds and lay claim to possibilities that we did not even see before." It is just this kind of hope that William James was getting at in his famous essay "The Will to Believe," and it is just this tenacity of faith and hope that is necessary if we are to overcome the antagonism of humans to each other and create a human community that is fundamentally cooperative, one that accepts diversity as a source of strength rather than derides difference as something to be suppressed or eliminated. We must have courage to act upon the conviction of the meaningfulness of our lives, for this belief itself will help to create the fact. "Approach human beings in expectation of their worth,... and their worth is immensely more likely to materialize."

In the postmodern world we have largely given up the notion of objective certitude in anything, because no concrete test of truth has ever been agreed upon. Yet even the most ardent empiricists, as James ironically notes, are only empiricists on reflection: "when left to their instincts, they dogmatize like infallible popes." We do not, in other words, give up the quest for objective truth, even while realizing all the difficulties of obtaining it, or even of knowing for certain when we have found it. We pin our faith to it, and do the only thing we can: try to square each new fact and experience with the total drift of thinking which defines our personal realities.

Nor, as James takes pains to argue, need we necessarily reject the passionate beliefs of our hearts in favor of a supposed "objectivity," for if philosophy has established anything, it is that there is no such thing. The "impersonal" is a mask for culturally specific ways of thinking which can only be transcended by the individuals who compose it. Science itself, often supposed to be the most objective and impersonal of all disciplines, would be far less advanced than it is if the passionate desires of individuals seeking to have their faith confirmed had been kept out. For it would be quite fair to say that no great revolution in thought has ever taken place without a revolutionary who had the capacity to persevere in the face of self-doubt, criticisms of colleagues, and strong evidence against whatever theory was being advanced. Without such perseverance, no new theory would ever be tested thoroughly enough to emerge out of the shadow of the current scientific or cultural paradigm. It is our individual and personal duty as human beings to venture beyond empirical fact in our personal lives to seek better ways of living and co-existing with both our human and non-human neighbors. We must never forget that though the wisdom of human collective cultures may be humanity's crowning achievement, such cultures ultimately exist only in and through individual human minds, and it is our duty to contribute whatever small wisdom we may have in order to leave these cultures better than we found them.

Conclusion -- Is the notion of human "progress" both intelligible and feasible?

If there is one thread that unifies all this, it is the notion of human progress. But the notion of a "progress" that is everlasting, as process philosophy asserts, is a slippery kind of concept, because progress requires some kind of standard in order to have any meaning. The existence of such a standard in turn suggests the existence of an ideal that, when reached, would spell an end to the need for progress. Is there no place where humans beings, as a species, can stop and say, "We've made it; it doesn't get any better than this"? Beyond a pessimism that we may never get there, doesn't the idea of progress itself entail an end-point? In the final analysis, is the notion of eternal progress, progress which can have no end, an intelligible and coherent idea?

Sometimes the first clues to answers for such slippery questions emerge from what we can say is definitively not the case, rather than what is. Charles Hartshorne argued, following Nikolai Berdyaev, that the idea of heaven and hell is "the most disgusting morality every conceived." My agreement cannot be overstated -- the idea that human beings ultimately perform morally good actions for the prospect of a post-mortem reward, or avoid morally evil actions for fear of a post-mortem punishment, is dehumanizing at its most basic level. The worth of human actions in the world is not in their value for the next; it is the actions themselves that are valuable. Unless loving is its own reward, then it is not really loving.

But even beyond the heaven-hell construct, subjective immortality itself suggests a meaninglessness to our earthly lives, as well as the peculiar human arrogance to elevate ourselves to the status of gods in our own right. Even Immanuel Kant, who sought to create a moral law independent of any particular purpose, could only imagine human existence in heaven as having the purpose of cultivating a holy will. In the hustle and bustle of our busy lives, we may close our eyes for a stolen instant and be seduced by the idea of an eternal tranquility, but leave us to such tranquility for long enough, and peace no longer satisfies. We must build, though we know not what. Yet the afterlife, at least as it has traditionally been conceived, is not a place where we can build anything, and ends only in the "self-defeating particularity" which Alfred North Whitehead warned against, of an eternal soul restless in its lack of purpose.

Along with Alfred Jospe, Emmanuel Chukwudi Eze characterizes human beings as fundamentally rejecting a peace between humanity and nature, because people seek to build and transform the world into something closer to an imagined ideal, however that ideal might be conceived. The ideal itself can and does change, forever revealing a new ideal with every step we take towards the old, receding beyond our sight like a horizon. Yet something continues to accumulate through the effort of our free and successive intelligences and is transmitted, at least through collective cultural wisdom and education, down the course of ages. Polemical and antagonistic as some of this wisdom may be, polemics can sometimes serve a Socratic function, and it is precisely the clashing of different points of view that most leads to growth. Difference and union are anything but opposites; in fact, as Teilhard tells us, union differentiates. Just as the different cells of a complex organism are differentiated into heart cells, liver cells, etc., the parts of any organized whole perfect themselves and fulfill themselves through union in difference. There is room enough on the complex organism that is the earth itself for humans and creatures of all types to co-exist in mutual fulfillment.

Yet such coexistence requires a unifying faith which does not wipe out other cultures and creeds, but augments them -- and that is faith in the human being to uncover truth. There are many people and texts who make the claim of being divinely inspired and infallible, thus apparently saving humanity from needing to exercise its own judgment, and yet it is only the exercise of such judgment which can distinguish the true revelation from the false. The scientific-religious conflict is ultimately a conflict between allegiance to a method of inquiry and allegiance to even an irreducible minimum of belief so fixed in advance that it can never be modified. This does not mean that all religious convictions must be abandoned, but instead passionately retained with the realization that they can, will, and must be tested in the furnace of the modern world, a world which grows more knowledgeable, critical, and pluralistic with every passing day. Here understanding and knowledge can, and do, enter into a perspective that is religious in quality, a hope that the natural interactions between humans, their environment, and each other will breed more intelligence and generate more knowledge, a knowledge whose method of inquiry does not limit it to any particular outlook or scheme of things.

It is true enough that progress does require a standard, or an ideal. But I am not so arrogant as to believe that my own ideal describes a utopia incapable of increase. That is both the limit and the glory of the human imagination: that we can imagine a better world, and yet sense, somehow, that even our imagined world hides an even more glorious vision. And it is our capacity to sense this second, hidden world, a world beyond even our own imaginations, that finally defines what it means to believe in God, and in the ultimate significance of our lives.
 
wow, that is long, sorry I've only read thru about 3/4 of the first post, but thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I'll finish reading a little later (though by then you'll have probably added more, oy vey!)

I'm not sure if you've covered this yet, or if you will, but one issue that's always interested me is the issue of how these ideas developed (evolved). Obviously, as man developed more advanced language and conceptual/symbolic thinking skills, the ability to conceive of religious concepts also developed. But how and when did that happen? I know that very early on man buried its dead, and that's interpreted as evidence of some sort of a religious belief, but I've always felt that maybe that's looking at things a little too anthropomorphically.

at any rate, I've got to get out and do some flag waving now, but I'm interested in the rest of your thoughts. Happy Fourth of July AP!

AND I HOPE YOU'VE ENJOYED YOUR TIME IN CHICAGO!!!

SoCal sounds like a nice place for your next stop. Just curious, where are you from?
 
wow, that is long, sorry I've only read thru about 3/4 of the first post, but thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I'll finish reading a little later (though by then you'll have probably added more, oy vey!)

I'm not sure if you've covered this yet, or if you will, but one issue that's always interested me is the issue of how these ideas developed (evolved). Obviously, as man developed more advanced language and conceptual/symbolic thinking skills, the ability to conceive of religious concepts also developed. But how and when did that happen? I know that very early on man buried its dead, and that's interpreted as evidence of some sort of a religious belief, but I've always felt that maybe that's looking at things a little too anthropomorphically.

at any rate, I've got to get out and do some flag waving now, but I'm interested in the rest of your thoughts. Happy Fourth of July AP!

AND I HOPE YOU'VE ENJOYED YOUR TIME IN CHICAGO!!!

SoCal sounds like a nice place for your next stop. Just curious, where are you from?
First of all, I won't be adding any more, except in response to questions or rebuttals... I think this is quite enough! If you're going to read the whole thing, you'll probably be one of the few. I'm flattered that you've bothered.

As for where I'm from... I'm actually from northern California, Sacramento specifically. My folks are still there. It'll be nice to be closer to them for holiday gatherings and such, although it's a six or seven hour drive, and I'm not sure if I'm even going to buy a car or not. I sold my car before I came to Chicago and survived off of public transportation and the occasional ride from my roommate. Claremont doesn't have Chicago's level of public transport, and I'm not going to have a roommate anymore, so I'm hoping there'll be a grocery store in walking distance, otherwise I might need a car.

As to how religion developed... your example made me laugh a little, because it reminded me of a trip I went on to the four corners area with my family years ago. I'm not from Utah, so I'd never seen a live Jazz home game, and decided to make the pilgrimage... Stockton and Malone were still there, and they beat the Clippers by a slim margin. In any case, after the game we went on a road trip and explored the four corners area, and at one point we went to some crazy canyons and such where some primitive peoples had lived. We got the guided tour, and there were two things that the guide would have us believe were religiously motivated: burying the dead, and building fires in room-sized pits in the ground that had some kind of covering over them, with a hole in the center to vent the smoke. I remember my Dad saying something to the effect of, "What a bunch of BS. Both were almost certainly designed to keep away predators. You don't want to leave corpses around to attract them, and living in a pit that's spewing smoke seems like a great way to keep the mountain lions out of your business."

But to speculate a little more directly -- and speculating is all we can do, of course -- I think religion fundamentally emerges as an answer to the question "what does it all mean?"... especially in the face of our eventual certain deaths. Religions may have not been formed with that thought explicitly in mind, but I think answering the question of meaning in the face of meaninglessness and death is their most important function. So I think religion tended to emerge both to justify a culture's traditions -- which themselves were a set of practices that were thought to make the people in the society thrive and flourish -- and to affirm the conviction that what people were doing and accomplishing within the culture was in some way meaningful in an ultimate sense. And these ultimate concerns, in turn, lead to moral systems that help stabilize the society as whole... when you pose a purpose to existence, the construction of moral codes to facilitate the accomplishment of that purpose goes hand-in-hand. The problem, of course, is when a religion clings to traditional thinking just because it seems safe and comfortable, while the wider culture passes it by. I would love to believe there was a book like the Bible that had all the answers to all my questions for all time, but it's just not that easy. You have to work at it. The cultures out of which religions emerged are organic and evolving things, and if they don't change to address new knowledge, as well as new social problems and concerns, then lose their relevance and become a hindrance.
 
I found it very interesting. Obviously a response to the whole would be just as long, and as everyone knows I am not wont to verbosity. I will hit some points here and there.

I noticed there are many assumptions. I am curious as to the logic behind some of the assumptions. I quoted this out of it as an example. I know you were more or less paraphrasing another work, so if this particular piece is not part of what you believe I apologize.

the idea that God is impassible, cannot change, and therefore does not feel emotion.

A + B = C

I do not see being unchangeable and "perfect" as leading to the direct result of not feeling emotion. Obviously the statement of God being impassible is also an assumption, one that Christians would, or should, deny outright. It is made clear through many passages in the Bible that God feels love, anger, joy, and pain.

But leaving the realm of the Christian mythos, and just taking it as a logical problem, it seems that it is a stretch. One could argue we are further along the path to perfection and enlightenment than, say, my dog. I would argue that as such, we feel a wider, deeper, and broader range of emotions, and, beyond that, are much more capable of understanding those emotions. If a being were that much further along than us, to a point of some type of perfection, then why would there suddenly become an inability to feel emotion? That appears to be assuming that emotion in and of itself is imperfect. Isn't it possible there are emotions a more enlightened being could and would feel that are beyond our understanding at this point in our development? That statement sounds a lot like the old cliche about cavemen and science. If I can't understand it, then it must be "magic" or otherwise incomprehensible, or evil or...pick a judgement.



Anyway I am not trying to single out just one sentence as the whole of your treatise. This one just jumped out at me. One thing that is a pet peeve of mine in terms of religion is the tendency to jump to conclusions without making attempts at putting logic to it, or making half-hearted attempts just deep enough to make us feel better about believing what we do. I see you have made an in-depth study of applying logic to these concepts so I was curious if you could expound on some of the assumptions being made and the logic behind them.


Thanks for posting by the way, very interesting read.
 
Atheist Preacher, if I were you... I'd create a webpage (blog) using blogger, buy a domain name for your page, title this and post this on the created page, then submit it to Stumbleupon. This kind of stuff does really well on stumble upon, and might get your name some acclaim.

I'll try to read this eventually, but I'd like to know (if it wasn't covered) what is your educated vision of an afterlife and what happens/how to get there?
 
I found it very interesting. Obviously a response to the whole would be just as long, and as everyone knows I am not wont to verbosity. I will hit some points here and there.

I noticed there are many assumptions. I am curious as to the logic behind some of the assumptions. I quoted this out of it as an example. I know you were more or less paraphrasing another work, so if this particular piece is not part of what you believe I apologize.

"the idea that God is impassible, cannot change, and therefore does not feel emotion."

A + B = C

I do not see being unchangeable and "perfect" as leading to the direct result of not feeling emotion. Obviously the statement of God being impassible is also an assumption, one that Christians would, or should, deny outright. It is made clear through many passages in the Bible that God feels love, anger, joy, and pain.

But leaving the realm of the Christian mythos, and just taking it as a logical problem, it seems that it is a stretch. One could argue we are further along the path to perfection and enlightenment than, say, my dog. I would argue that as such, we feel a wider, deeper, and broader range of emotions, and, beyond that, are much more capable of understanding those emotions. If a being were that much further along than us, to a point of some type of perfection, then why would there suddenly become an inability to feel emotion? That appears to be assuming that emotion in and of itself is imperfect. Isn't it possible there are emotions a more enlightened being could and would feel that are beyond our understanding at this point in our development? That statement sounds a lot like the old cliche about cavemen and science. If I can't understand it, then it must be "magic" or otherwise incomprehensible, or evil or...pick a judgement.



Anyway I am not trying to single out just one sentence as the whole of your treatise. This one just jumped out at me. One thing that is a pet peeve of mine in terms of religion is the tendency to jump to conclusions without making attempts at putting logic to it, or making half-hearted attempts just deep enough to make us feel better about believing what we do. I see you have made an in-depth study of applying logic to these concepts so I was curious if you could expound on some of the assumptions being made and the logic behind them.


Thanks for posting by the way, very interesting read.
I'm glad you found it interesting. I strive to make sure that at the very least my readers aren't hopelessly bored. If you happen to learn something... well, that's a bonus.

In any case, that's a good question about God feeling emotion. I'll do my best to answer.

First, I certainly hear you (and obviously agree) when you say that God's impassibility is an assumption which "Christians would, or should, deny outright." I do not presume to argue that the God just described is the God that most Christians actually worship. There is often a disconnect between the theology and philosophy of theologians and the beliefs of the everyday believer. Sometimes popular notions have a grounded wisdom found lacking in the ivory tower of the academy, and this is one instance in which the academics are squarely in the wrong. In their zeal to maintain a Hellenistic vision of "perfection," Christian theologians threw out the baby with the bathwater when they insisted on God's absolute omnipotence and immutability. Everyday believers, on the other hand, may profess to holding such views, if they have heard them often enough -- but I would argue that most Christian believers do not realize and would never affirm the full implications of God's omnipotence and immutability. Far more important is the notion that the Christian God is a God of love, a God who takes a real interest in the lives and actions of His believers, and if we must choose between a God who is omnipotent and immutable and a God who is loving and intimately involved in the lives of His followers, it is these latter attributes which must be defended as the ground of Christian hope for salvation.

The fact is, though, that many of the most respected Christian theologians have made these kind of Hellenistic assertions. Anselm and Thomas Aquinas are just two examples. They both have some good things to say, but they also both make attempts at some very strange rationalizations that really don't make any sense.

Regarding emotion... I am willing to concede that a God as conceived by Thomas or Anselm might conceivably feel a type of emotion. But it would be a very odd type, indeed. I would argue that emotion itself requires change... we only feel one emotion at any particular instant... to feel more than one feeling requires some kind of temporal extension. IF God is atemporal and omniscient, then that means that God has knowledge of all things that are or ever will be. As a natural consequence, God cannot change, because nothing can be added or subtracted to God... God already knows it all. So if God could be said to feel emotion, it could only possibly a single feeling toward all of existence as a whole. That's really what I meant by saying that God "doesn't feel emotion."

The more important point is that a God that is atemporal/impassible cannot be affected by anything we do... but I think by your own denial of God's impassibility that you're pretty clear on that.

In my own conception, God certainly does feel emotion. That's not something I would ever care to deny. If I seemed to deny it in the paper, then it was just a problem with my prose... I never meant to deny that God feels emotion in any case except in the case of the impassible, omniscient God that Thomas, Anselm, and other Christian theologians championed.

I hope I've clarified things to your satisfaction. I do have other, more technical reasons for thinking emotion requires change, but that starts to get deeper into Whitehead's process metaphysics, and we're probably best leaving that alone. Whitehead was known for being a genius, but also as being nearly impossible to understand at times.
 
icp_miracles_didnt_read.gif


Sorry, just wanted some excuse to post that. I did read part of it and it's good, though I'd suggest possibly dumbing it down a bit for a message board. Not that I'm an idiot who can't read words that are greater than three syllables (I can't read most of them but that's beside the point), but I had a massive "I'm proofreading a paper I'm turning into English Comp class in college" flashback after reading a bit of it. Though I do get that's what you Philosophy majors do, haha.
 
Atheist Preacher, if I were you... I'd create a webpage (blog) using blogger, buy a domain name for your page, title this and post this on the created page, then submit it to Stumbleupon. This kind of stuff does really well on stumble upon, and might get your name some acclaim.

I'll try to read this eventually, but I'd like to know (if it wasn't covered) what is your educated vision of an afterlife and what happens/how to get there?
Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'm actually going to hold off and see if I can get this published in a journal... that would probably do more for my academic career. But if I can't, that might be a good option.

It's funny you should ask about the afterlife. One of my final two classes here at UChicago was called "philosophical reflections on death." Really interesting stuff. The best book I read for the entire class was one called Surviving Death by Mark Johnston. It's kind of technical, but you might want to check it out, see if it's something you're interested in.

There's a lot of subtlety that I'm going to miss here, but let me try to give a brief answer.

I don't believe in subjective immortality, where the subject continues to experience things after they die. Not only is there no compelling evidence to believe that we have experiences after death, but the whole concept of an afterlife means you are continuing to live "for yourself" even after death. That, to me, is an unhealthy egoism. The fact is, we die, and the world moves on without us. I don't think this should be all that deeply troubling when you get right down to it. As Epicurus famously pointed out, when you die, you will no longer exist to care that you're dead.

There are actually some compelling arguments that immortality would be absolutely miserable, because at some point -- whether it be 200 years on 100,000 -- a person has experienced pretty much all that they want to experience. Sure, there are always new things to do, new people to meet, new books being written, but we all have our own personalities, our own interests and disinterests. At some point, I'd imagine you'd be quite literally bored to the point where death would be a release.

But the very worst thing about subjective immortality is that it suggests that what we do here and now doesn't really matter. In the case of the heaven-hell construct especially, this world is just a test for next. That, to me, is deeply problematic because it totally belittles everything humans accomplish here on earth. I believe that what we do with our lives is of ultimate significance, because I refuse to believe that all of this is just a test.

What I do believe in is objective immortality. The broad definition of objective immortality is that you live on through your effects on others around you. Of course, no one would really deny that we live on in this sense. But I also believe that we are objectively immortal in the sense that God will always perfectly remember, love, and understand us. And as a result of experiencing our finite lives, we actually change God, however subtley, so that we live on both through our effect on God and, in turn, God's interaction with the world. Charles Hartshorne used a metaphor I really like, which is that human lives to God are something like books. Death is the end of the story, but the book still exists, and it still has a real effect. The fact that God has read the book that is our lives makes God interact differently with the living, in addition to whatever effects we've had on others directly.

That's about the best short answer I can give. Reading what I originally posted will probably make my answer clearer, particularly the third-to-last section on the dual nature of humanity, as well as the concluding section. But in any case, thanks for your interest.
 
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Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'm actually going to hold off and see if I can get this published in a journal... that would probably do more for my academic career. But if I can't, that might be a good option.

It's funny you should ask about the afterlife. One of my final two classes here at UChicago was called "philosophical reflections on death." Really interesting stuff. The best book I read for the entire class was one called Surviving Death by Mark Johnston. It's kind of technical, but you might want to check it out, see if it's something you're interested in.

There's a lot of subtlety that I'm going to miss here, but let me try to give a brief answer.

I don't believe in subjective immortality, where the subject continues to experience things after they die. Not only is there no compelling evidence to believe that we have experiences after death, but the whole concept of an afterlife means you are continuing to live "for yourself" even after death. That, to me, is an unhealthy egoism. The fact is, we die, and the world moves on without us. I don't think this should be all that deeply troubling when you get right down to it. As Epicurus famously pointed out, when you die, you will no longer exist to care that you're dead.

There are actually some compelling arguments that immortality would be absolutely miserable, because at some point -- whether it be 200 years on 100,000 -- a person has experienced pretty much all that they want to experience. Sure, there are always new things to do, new people to meet, new books being written, but we all have our own personalities, our own interests and disinterests. At some point, I'd imagine you'd be quite literally bored to the point where death would be a release.

But the very worst thing about subjective immortality is that it suggests that what we do here and now doesn't really matter. In the case of the heaven-hell construct especially, this world is just a test for next. That, to me, is deeply problematic because it totally belittles everything humans accomplish here on earth. I believe that what we do with our lives is of ultimate significance, because I refuse to believe that all of this is just a test.

What I do believe in is objective immortality. The broad definition of objective immortality is that you live on through your effects on others around you. Of course, no one would really deny that we live on in this sense. But I also believe that we are objectively immortal in the sense that God will always perfectly remember, love, and understand us. And as a result of experiencing our finite lives, we actually change God, however subtley, so that we live on both through our effect on God and, in turn, God's interaction with the world. Charles Hartshorne used a metaphor I really like, which is that human lives to God are something like books. Death is the end of the story, but the book still exists, and it still has a real effect. The fact that God has read the book that is our lives makes God interact differently with the living, in addition to whatever effects we've had on others directly.

That's about the best short answer I can give. Reading what I originally posted will probably make my answer clearer, particularly the third-to-last section on the dual nature of humanity, as well as the concluding section. But in any case, thanks for your interest.

I don't agree with this... but it is interesting. My problems are what is god's purpose if any time we have in this existence is limited? Where did God come from if life only exists through 10 billion perspectives of flawed humans? How can god truly love and serve us if we're just books to him? He may have been conjured, he may be a real force guiding our earthly existence. But I don't understand the point if after 80 years, the lights go out for us but god keeps on turning... I get that 10,000 years of same old would be excruciatingly boring at a certain point... but I don't think the case is "here's your infinity jet ski try not to get too bored".
I don't like your book analogy, because if the time we spend on earth is a book... it's not complete... If The Sopranos taught us anything its that the proper denouement to any story isn't "this happened, this happened, this happened, it ended and everybody's still confused"

I don't know, what do you think?
 
I don't agree with this... but it is interesting. My problems are what is god's purpose if any time we have in this existence is limited? Where did God come from if life only exists through 10 billion perspectives of flawed humans? How can god truly love and serve us if we're just books to him? He may have been conjured, he may be a real force guiding our earthly existence. But I don't understand the point if after 80 years, the lights go out for us but god keeps on turning... I get that 10,000 years of same old would be excruciatingly boring at a certain point... but I don't think the case is "here's your infinity jet ski try not to get too bored".
I don't like your book analogy, because if the time we spend on earth is a book... it's not complete... If The Sopranos taught us anything its that the proper denouement to any story isn't "this happened, this happened, this happened, it ended and everybody's still confused"

I don't know, what do you think?
Those are all big questions.

Where did God come from if life only exists through 10 billion perspectives of flawed humans? Well, I'm not saying that God emerges from humanity... only that God is affected by humanity (and by everything else, for that matter). As to whether there was a time when God was not, or the universe was not... that's something I would have to study more carefully before I say too much about it.

What is god's purpose if any time we have in this existence is limited?... How can god truly love and serve us if we're just books to him? This is where I think we are too ego-centric. You ask: what is God's purpose? But God is God... the supreme being in the universe. We get the emphasis wrong when we ask what God can do for us rather than what we can do for God. Because here's the thing: many Christian theologians would count it as blasphemy to assert that we can actually do something for God that God couldn't do Itself. One of the fundamental assertions that process theology makes is that we really matter in the sense that we can contribute something unique and valuable both to God, the people we live with, and the larger world... contrary to the traditional Christian afterlife picture, in which we exist primarily to save ourselves.

I don't like your book analogy, because if the time we spend on earth is a book... it's not complete. On the contrary: death is the only way in which our life stories can be complete. We can always wish for more life -- and most of us do -- but the fact that there is an ending, and we know it, forces us to make some tough decisions as to how to spend our time. At the end of your life you may still be confused, and wonder what it all means -- but the fact that we die forces us to ask what is really important to us (what Paul Tillich calls an "ultimate concern") and live for that. With immortality in any form -- including an afterlife -- we never have to live for anything but ourselves. It's an ultimately selfish and self-centered existence... I don't mean to be insulting, but that is the logical conclusion to the whole afterlife scheme. As Whitehead put it, immortality and/or afterlife can end only in a "self-defeating particularity."

Death honestly doesn't bother me as an idea. Of course, I'm still young... I may find it more disturbing when I'm closer to the end. But as I said, when I'm dead I won't be around to care that I'm dead... and right now I know that although I'll be gone, there will be other people who will carry on the causes I care about, all the ideas and influence that I've left with them.

I hate to do this, but I quote myself from above, from the third-to-last section:

Any one individual is finite, with a limited pool of experience dwarfed by the collective experience of the society as a whole, and yet there is a tendency for individuals to become rigid in their outlooks. To quote a common expression: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." A young person is supremely curious and open to being influenced in her views by whatever people or things present themselves (since she as yet has little or no experience to tell her otherwise), but an older person tends more and more to impose her views upon the situation. Such imposition is not always bad; it is part of the way in which social evolution takes place. However, there is a point at which an individual personality can become rigid to the point of stagnation -- a stagnation which is overcome through the person's death and replacement by progeny, whether such progeny be biological or merely intellectual. The child is greatly influenced by the parent, but also tempered by social norms and the views of others, as well as possessing her own unique and indefinable spark of originality, all combining to create an entirely new outlook on the world. Thus the legitimate interests of the parent survive and are given a new relevance in the people she leaves behind.

In this way, the deaths of individuals after contributing their own unique value to the social experience drives social evolution and progress. Much as the bodies of genetically engineered plants are prone to be wiped out by a single strain of a disease, the progressive death and replacement of individuals with others who have new perspectives helps to shield particular projects, interests, and values from irrelevance, since they are continually changed and strengthened by their graded entry into new social situations. Death eliminates the self-interested concerns of individuals while their social influence on survivors is maintained, and the world marches on.

We can say, then, that individual lives are directed toward an augmentation and refinement of the collective good -- that is, society and social ideals. As long as there is pain and suffering in the world, there will always be room for improvement, room for us to try to leave the world a better place than we found it.
That's it. Basically, we live for everyone except ourselves, but it is in doing so that we truly find ourselves. I'm not in the habit of quoting biblical verse, but: "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." (Luke 17:33). That's about as profound a wisdom as you're going to get. And hell, Buddhism is based around the idea that there are no selves... which I would argue is a variation on much the same idea.

Hopefully I've made myself more clear. We don't have to agree... but I'm grateful that you've sought to discuss it. nothing will change without people talking frankly while trying not to get defensive about their beliefs. The fact that there are so many different Christian sects when they have so many fundamental similarities just shows how far we have to go, and how much more talking we should be doing.
 
Atheist, not to be picky, but you can tell you totally just copied and pasted a paper that you wrote for school.
 
Atheist, not to be picky, but you can tell you totally just copied and pasted a paper that you wrote for school.

I don't think you've ever read a college level academic thesis. This wasn't one, it may have been a summation, but i doubt this was word for word a Grad-Level Theology Class paper.
 
Wouldn't it be a strange twist of fate, if whatever you believe the afterlife is or isn't or whether it exists... is the exact scenario that happens when you die. Then everyone is happy...

God is all powerful

Make it happen.
 
Atheist, not to be picky, but you can tell you totally just copied and pasted a paper that you wrote for school.
I did say in the opening that "much of it is adpated from various papers I've written here at UChicago." It would've been a lot more work to just do it all from scratch, and it probably wouldn't have been as interesting as something i'd already put some time into. I know it's long... but people don't have to read it if they don't want to.
 
I just feel like this needs to be here:
tldr5.jpg
I can't help myself:

tl;dr
"Too long; didn't read."
1. The paradox of being able to read 400 small posts but not a single long post.
2. A sign of ADD or lack of reading capability.
3. A cry for attention: "I'm too lazy to read the entirety of what you said, but I still want to say something."
4. A sign that not only is someone too lazy and stupid to read, but also too lazy to even type out four words indicating such.
5. A desperate attempt at a comeback used by people who just can't think of one.

:cool:
 
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