AtheistPreacher
Well-Known Member
Actually, I agree with you on the psychological desire evinced by many/most humans to be immortalized in thought after their death. That's evident in the monuments we place, the names we give to street and airports, etc. Where I disagree is whether the need to answer this worry can be suffcient to argue that the answer exists. Ultimately, your position seems to come down to you adopting a world-view you find comforting. I have trouble joining you there. It's really comfortable, I don't deny, but that's not what I seek in a world-view.
Fair enough.
Does God have any power to affect the universe that does not derive from the actions of rational beings reacting to God?
You can change an action without changing a decision. If I am withnessing a murder, I can intervene to prevent the murder, and this does not affect the decision of the murderer in any way I can tell.
Beings do not have to be rational to react to God. I would say that all things in the universe react to God, because God is all-pervasive in it. I've always liked the mind-body analogy in this regard. It's pantheism with a twist that makes it panentheism: God's body is the entire universe, and all things are like the different cells that make it up. And I would say that God has roughly the sort of control that we have over our own internals. We can;t, for instance, order a particular white blood cell to stop attacking a bacterial invader. But it's also been shown that our emotions can affect our overall physical health. God's influence is something like this... It draws us toward certain actions which would make the whole more harmonious. Whitehead would say that each "actual entity" in the universe is given an "initial aim" by God which it then has freedom to enact (or not) in numerous different ways, ways that are not necessarily tinged by morality one way or the other, but certainly can be.
As for changing an action without changing a decision... yes, you or I could do that. But God can't. God can only persuade. It's like the white blood cell analogy. God would need a localized body to do that, but It just doesn't have one. Of course, this makes a lot of people uncomfortable that God doesn't have the power to stop bullets or falling rocks... but I can't see what would be so important about God being able to do those kinds of things, anyway. Besides, if God could do that, then the problem of evil springs up again all the more troublingly. If God has the power to prevent bad things from happening, why not do it? The answer in this conception is quite simple and solves the problem: God can't prevent these things. Not won't... can't.
If God has no power over rational beings, in what way do we owe our existence to him, so that the question "Would our nonexistence be better?" has the needed foundation behind it?
No, I don't think we deserve anything in particular from God. It's just that your description so far has been of a commensalistic relationship, not mutualisitic one. This may be because it is primarily framed in terms of differneces with the predominant religion of our culture, as opposed to a stand-alone explanation. Even when you describe God's influence as a lure, it is a lure where we generate the bait and determine its worth ourself.
That's fair. In fact, Whitehead himself stressed that God and the world required each other, that "it is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God." So the relationship is indeed symbiotic, but I would argue that both sides are helped by the interaction. To quote Whitehead's Process and Reality: "In God's nature, permanence is primordial and flux is derivative from the world; in the World's nature, flux is primordial and permanence is derivative from God. Also the World's nature is a primordial datum for God; and God's nature is a primordial datum for the World... God is the infinite ground of all mentality, the unity of vision seeking physical multiplicity. The World is the multiplicity of finites, actualities seeking a perfected unity. Neither God, nor the World, reaches static completion. Both are in the grip of the ultimate metaphysical ground, the creative advance into novelty. Either of them, God and the World, is the instrument of novelty for the other."
When I feel empathy, that feeling stays interior untiul I make an overt expression of it. Does God make overt expressions of his empahty and love?
"Overt"? Hmm. I'm not sure the term applies here. I would say that God's empathy and love are omnipresent, so I suppose you could say that it is an "overt" expression, constantly. But it's more like we need to train ourselves to be able to "hear" or receive these expressions that always exist as a kind of white noise in our consciousness.
I'll just say I've read stranger things, and have no reason to object to your characterization.
Interesting notion, huh?
However, the God you have described does not give us a functionally objective past, but if we can't use the version of the past God has, it can serve no function for us. What we can access is reasonable constuction of the past.
The existence of an objective reality does not imply the existence of an accessible objective past.
What we could/can do is create two constructions of the past based upon their testimony, and compare each construction to the evidence currently available. In this culture, we are supposed to convict only when the evidence that the former construction is correct is so convincing that we can find no legitimate reason to doubt it.
I am not saying that the objective past is accessible. All I'm saying is that without God it is difficult to say how an objective past could really exist. If no one remembers the color of Caesar's hair as he crossed the Rubicon, in what sense could we really say it exists? We can't go back and see it. It's just gone, forever. The only reason we say it exist is that we all agree that Caesar did cross the Rubicon at some point, and his hair had to be some color or other.I dont see how. I beleive in an objective but inaccessible past, and don't see how God makes that more intelligible or changes that dynamic.
All I'm saying is that if God perfectly remembers all things, then the memory of God constitutes the objective past, and makes more intelligible how an objective past can exist. We cannot and don't need to access it... it's simply an aid to believing in the psychologically necessary proposition that the past is real. That's all I was saying.
Do. That's one of two books in the Philosophical Reflections on Death class I took recently that was really worthwhile. The other was Mark Johnston's Surviving Death.I'll look for it at the local libraries.