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On God and Religion

Actually, I agree with you on the psychological desire evinced by many/most humans to be immortalized in thought after their death. That's evident in the monuments we place, the names we give to street and airports, etc. Where I disagree is whether the need to answer this worry can be suffcient to argue that the answer exists. Ultimately, your position seems to come down to you adopting a world-view you find comforting. I have trouble joining you there. It's really comfortable, I don't deny, but that's not what I seek in a world-view.

Fair enough.

Does God have any power to affect the universe that does not derive from the actions of rational beings reacting to God?

You can change an action without changing a decision. If I am withnessing a murder, I can intervene to prevent the murder, and this does not affect the decision of the murderer in any way I can tell.

Beings do not have to be rational to react to God. I would say that all things in the universe react to God, because God is all-pervasive in it. I've always liked the mind-body analogy in this regard. It's pantheism with a twist that makes it panentheism: God's body is the entire universe, and all things are like the different cells that make it up. And I would say that God has roughly the sort of control that we have over our own internals. We can;t, for instance, order a particular white blood cell to stop attacking a bacterial invader. But it's also been shown that our emotions can affect our overall physical health. God's influence is something like this... It draws us toward certain actions which would make the whole more harmonious. Whitehead would say that each "actual entity" in the universe is given an "initial aim" by God which it then has freedom to enact (or not) in numerous different ways, ways that are not necessarily tinged by morality one way or the other, but certainly can be.

As for changing an action without changing a decision... yes, you or I could do that. But God can't. God can only persuade. It's like the white blood cell analogy. God would need a localized body to do that, but It just doesn't have one. Of course, this makes a lot of people uncomfortable that God doesn't have the power to stop bullets or falling rocks... but I can't see what would be so important about God being able to do those kinds of things, anyway. Besides, if God could do that, then the problem of evil springs up again all the more troublingly. If God has the power to prevent bad things from happening, why not do it? The answer in this conception is quite simple and solves the problem: God can't prevent these things. Not won't... can't.

If God has no power over rational beings, in what way do we owe our existence to him, so that the question "Would our nonexistence be better?" has the needed foundation behind it?

No, I don't think we deserve anything in particular from God. It's just that your description so far has been of a commensalistic relationship, not mutualisitic one. This may be because it is primarily framed in terms of differneces with the predominant religion of our culture, as opposed to a stand-alone explanation. Even when you describe God's influence as a lure, it is a lure where we generate the bait and determine its worth ourself.

That's fair. In fact, Whitehead himself stressed that God and the world required each other, that "it is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God." So the relationship is indeed symbiotic, but I would argue that both sides are helped by the interaction. To quote Whitehead's Process and Reality: "In God's nature, permanence is primordial and flux is derivative from the world; in the World's nature, flux is primordial and permanence is derivative from God. Also the World's nature is a primordial datum for God; and God's nature is a primordial datum for the World... God is the infinite ground of all mentality, the unity of vision seeking physical multiplicity. The World is the multiplicity of finites, actualities seeking a perfected unity. Neither God, nor the World, reaches static completion. Both are in the grip of the ultimate metaphysical ground, the creative advance into novelty. Either of them, God and the World, is the instrument of novelty for the other."

When I feel empathy, that feeling stays interior untiul I make an overt expression of it. Does God make overt expressions of his empahty and love?

"Overt"? Hmm. I'm not sure the term applies here. I would say that God's empathy and love are omnipresent, so I suppose you could say that it is an "overt" expression, constantly. But it's more like we need to train ourselves to be able to "hear" or receive these expressions that always exist as a kind of white noise in our consciousness.

I'll just say I've read stranger things, and have no reason to object to your characterization.

Interesting notion, huh?

However, the God you have described does not give us a functionally objective past, but if we can't use the version of the past God has, it can serve no function for us. What we can access is reasonable constuction of the past.
The existence of an objective reality does not imply the existence of an accessible objective past.
What we could/can do is create two constructions of the past based upon their testimony, and compare each construction to the evidence currently available. In this culture, we are supposed to convict only when the evidence that the former construction is correct is so convincing that we can find no legitimate reason to doubt it.
I dont see how. I beleive in an objective but inaccessible past, and don't see how God makes that more intelligible or changes that dynamic.
I am not saying that the objective past is accessible. All I'm saying is that without God it is difficult to say how an objective past could really exist. If no one remembers the color of Caesar's hair as he crossed the Rubicon, in what sense could we really say it exists? We can't go back and see it. It's just gone, forever. The only reason we say it exist is that we all agree that Caesar did cross the Rubicon at some point, and his hair had to be some color or other.

All I'm saying is that if God perfectly remembers all things, then the memory of God constitutes the objective past, and makes more intelligible how an objective past can exist. We cannot and don't need to access it... it's simply an aid to believing in the psychologically necessary proposition that the past is real. That's all I was saying.

I'll look for it at the local libraries.
Do. That's one of two books in the Philosophical Reflections on Death class I took recently that was really worthwhile. The other was Mark Johnston's Surviving Death.
 
Perhaps we sould agree to disagree here. I see the differences as differences in degree. In some cases, fewer than many humans would admit, our differences seem to have been pushed very quickly so that the degree of difference is large, but I don't see that as forming a difference in kind.



I agree with that. I would think we both agree that this describes only the current state of these animals, and is not limiting on their progeny.



Of course not, then the children would not be able to hunt. In case that's not clear, I'm talking about male lions, who have no compunction about keeping their daughters in their pride and having cubs with them.



Well-fed housecats kill mice and then don't eat them.



Cats, probably not. But that's not usually behavior we define as evil.



Cats can be depressed (or so it seems to me). A difference in degree, not kind; in expression more than feeling.



I don't deny we have evoloed unique capabilities. I only deny that it is a difference in kind.



What is a herd, or offspring, is not an abstraction applied to individual pieces of moving meat? Animals don't express their abstractions in the fashion we do, but they certainly use abstractions. Otherwise wthey couldn't tie a noise, smell, etc. to the possibility of a predator/prey being nearby.



Just noting that our differences with animals are differences in degree, not kind. I'm not sure if you would qualify that as nit-picky or not.
OK, fair enough. As you said, I think we can agree to disagree here. You haven't said anything I would strenuously object to. Besides, the "difference in kind" distinction makes no difference either way to the sort of points I was trying to make in the larger piece. I was just trying to get at the importance of humans specifically, since we are, in fact, human... which makes specifics about humans in this formulation more immediately interesting. Theology is usually for people rather than cats. :)
 
To quote Whitehead's Process and Reality: "In God's nature, permanence is primordial and flux is derivative from the world; in the World's nature, flux is primordial and permanence is derivative from God. Also the World's nature is a primordial datum for God; and God's nature is a primordial datum for the World...

So, God provides to the world a concrete past, even without interacting with the present, and in this sense is mutualistic with the world?

I am not saying that the objective past is accessible. All I'm saying is that without God it is difficult to say how an objective past could really exist. If no one remembers the color of Caesar's hair as he crossed the Rubicon, in what sense could we really say it exists?

Why would we say it exists, present tense? For me, it is sufficient that it existed.
 
This sort of ties into the evolution thread, and is something that puzzles me about the concept of heaven or afterlife - - at what point in our evolution did man create the idea of heaven/afterlife? What was the evolutionary threshold that man had to cross in order to enter the "Pearly Gates"

When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit.
 
that reminds me, AP, because this wasn't covered (as far as I could tell) in your original posts on the subject, is the God of your beliefs a/the "creator" God?

Do creation concepts play any role in your beliefs?


Also, is the God you describe a "one size fits all" deity (does everyone share the same God) or does your conception of the deity allow for the idea of personalized God(s). In other words, God as a universal overarching concept that individuals tailor to some degree to suit their circumstances and personal belief system.
 
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So, God provides to the world a concrete past, even without interacting with the present, and in this sense is mutualistic with the world?

Well, God does interact with the present, acting as a lure and given things their initial aims. And God does "provide a concrete past" in the sense of preserving the past eternally, which in turn alters God's effects on us. But I am not quite sure what you mean by "mutualistic with the world."

Why would we say it exists, present tense? For me, it is sufficient that it existed.
If no one remembers something that existed, how we can we say that it ever existed? You could say, "well of course it did, there is a concrete world in which true events occur," but this just displays the depth of our need for such an assumption. It's not ultimately based on anything.

To quote myself from the "Freedom as the absolute principle" section:

An actual entity in this philosophical system is defined by its relations to other actual entities; it is a synthesis of its experiences and reactions to other actual entities surrounding it. A real thing is just that which forces the rest of the universe to in some way conform to it; that is to say, if theoretically a thing made strictly no difference to any other entity, it could not be said to really exist.

A past which makes no difference to anyone or anything cannot be said to really exist because there are no effects. That's why I believe the idea that God remembers everything and preserves it eternally is important.
 
that reminds me, AP, because this wasn't covered (as far as I could tell) in your original posts on the subject, is the God of your beliefs a/the "creator" God?

Do creation concepts play any role in your beliefs?

The short answer is, "no." It just isn't an area that I've studied enough or thought enough about. Right now I don't have strong reasons or strong feelings supporting one way or the other. I'd be interested to hear any ideas anyone had about why it might be important that God is Creator (or not). That's a tough one, and I really haven't thought through all the implications.

Also, is the God you describe a "one size fits all" deity (does everyone share the same God) or does your conception of the deity allow for the idea of personalized God(s). In other words, God as a universal overarching concept that individuals tailor to some degree to suit their circumstances and personal belief system.
Well, I do believe that there is but one God... so we do all share the same God. But in another way, you could say we all feel God in different fashions. We are all certainly born in different places and grow up in different contexts. So when we listen for God and search for God, we're going to be searching and listening for different things. After all, each of us ourselves takes on different roles when talking to different people. We are one person to our children, another to our parents, another to our friends.

I tend to call God "It," both to avoid assigning God a gender and to remind us not to overpersonalize God in the sense that we think the God we sense or feel God is the same way that others do. I do believe we have a sort of personal relationship with God, and that's important to remember as well... but we've referred to God as "He" so often that I don't think it hurts to start reminding in the other direction, as well! You can't pigeon-hole God's personality.
 
that reminds me, AP, because this wasn't covered (as far as I could tell) in your original posts on the subject, is the God of your beliefs a/the "creator" God?

Do creation concepts play any role in your beliefs?

The short answer is, "no." It just isn't an area that I've studied enough or thought enough about. Right now I don't have strong reasons or strong feelings supporting one way or the other. I'd be interested to hear any ideas anyone had about why it might be important that God is Creator (or not). That's a tough one, and I really haven't thought through all the implications.

It just seems it could get really dicey if God is not viewed as the creator. If God didn't have some hand in the creation of the universe, where did God come from? My own belief, and one that seems to fit with your own perspective, is that man created the concept of God to fit his own needs. But that, at least in my opinion, would seem to jeopardize the concept of Christ - which, I just realized, is something else you really didn't seem to touch on at all in your posts.

And where does the idea of salvation fit into your concept of God?




Well, I do believe that there is but one God... so we do all share the same God. But in another way, you could say we all feel God in different fashions. We are all certainly born in different places and grow up in different contexts. So when we listen for God and search for God, we're going to be searching and listening for different things. After all, each of us ourselves takes on different roles when talking to different people. We are one person to our children, another to our parents, another to our friends.

I tend to call God "It," both to avoid assigning God a gender and to remind us not to overpersonalize God in the sense that we think the God we sense or feel God is the same way that others do. I do believe we have a sort of personal relationship with God, and that's important to remember as well... but we've referred to God as "He" so often that I don't think it hurts to start reminding in the other direction, as well! You can't pigeon-hole God's personality.
 
It just seems it could get really dicey if God is not viewed as the creator. If God didn't have some hand in the creation of the universe, where did God come from? My own belief, and one that seems to fit with your own perspective, is that man created the concept of God to fit his own needs. But that, at least in my opinion, would seem to jeopardize the concept of Christ - which, I just realized, is something else you really didn't seem to touch on at all in your posts.

And where does the idea of salvation fit into your concept of God?
Christ and salvation really just don't fit into my concept of God at all. Jesus was certainly a real historical figure, but I don't subscribe to the claims Christians make about him. That's not to say he didn't have some interesting ideas.

Salvation... it's interesting, I was in a class here at UChicago a few quarters ago called "Being Human." In one of the discussions, the idea of salvation came up. And, somewhat politically incorrectly I suppose, I started pressing everyone in the class (there were about ten of us) about what exactly "salvation" meant for them. I never really got a straight answer.

But as I've said... I believe that when we're dead, we're dead. Our experiences survive in some way, but we don't go on experiencing. What is there to save?

Some would argue that we need incentive to be good. I think that's a bunch of crap. Unless loving is its own reward, then it's not really loving. Being happy and being moral go together... metaphysical doggy treats like heaven belittle the idea that being a good person is its own reward.

So yeah... salvation... I ain't got no use for it.
 
I have a simple question: Why does the question of god matter?

I realize this is an old agnostic truism, but I've never found a satisfactory answer to this question. We don't know from the day we're born to the day we die whether there is a god. No one alive has ever produced any evidence besides profound feeling or highly disputable texts. There is certainly nothing empirical.

Even if there was, I can't conceive of a god who gave me my senses and intellectual faculties who doesn't want me to figure out a reason for living that has nothing to do with him/her/it at all. In fact, the only god I can even remotely believe in is one whose opinion is that I never spend a waking second thinking about HIM.

The world is actually less meaningful when you attach god to it than when you take him away from it.
 
I have a simple question: Why does the question of god matter?

I realize this is an old agnostic truism, but I've never found a satisfactory answer to this question. We don't know from the day we're born to the day we die whether there is a god. No one alive has ever produced any evidence besides profound feeling or highly disputable texts. There is certainly nothing empirical.

Even if there was, I can't conceive of a god who gave me my senses and intellectual faculties who doesn't want me to figure out a reason for living that has nothing to do with him/her/it at all. In fact, the only god I can even remotely believe in is one whose opinion is that I never spend a waking second thinking about HIM.

The world is actually less meaningful when you attach god to it than when you take him away from it.
Well, you're wrong about one thing: the question of whether God matters is not simple.

The only thing I can say is: read what I originally posted. That's my response. I mean, the first section (after the intro) is titled "Humanity's need for ultimate purpose." The whole thing is very much about purposes and why God is important for human lives to have any meaning. It takes at least as much space as I've used to even begin answering that question. And even then, there's a hell of a lot I haven't addressed.

Odds are a message board post from some random guy isn't going to change your mind. But hopefully it'll at least provide some food for thought. FWIW, I used to be an atheist, and still agree more with atheists on many things than I do with conservative Christians.
 
I actually, I agree with you on the psychological desire evinced by many/most humans to be immortalized in thought after their death. That's evident in the monuments we place, the names we give to street and airports, etc. Where I disagree is whether the need to answer this worry can be suffcient to argue that the answer exists. Ultimately, your position seems to come down to you adopting a world-view you find comforting. I have trouble joining you there. It's really comfortable, I don't deny, but that's not what I seek in a world-view.
You know, I've already responded to this a little bit, but some other thoughts occurred to me.

My identical twin brother is an atheist, and his primary criticism is the one you make here: I've adopted a worldview that I find comforting. And I won't deny that there is some element of Pascal's wager in it -- not in the sense of heavenly reward, but simply in the sense of believing today in the meaningfulness of my actions for the future. After all, we can never really be sure either way.

But the unwritten assumption in this criticism is that there is an atheistic worldview that is more likely to be true than the theistic position I've outlined. I'm not so sure that's the case. Atheists in this day and age usually take their position as the default one, and demand some sort of demonstration of God's existence. But I don't believe that God's existence can ever be proved empirically, anyway. Why? Because I very strongly believe that God's existence is either necessary or impossible; it is not a contingent matter. In other words, if God exists, then it is because the universe could not have been any other way; likewise, if God does not exist, then it is because the universe could not have been any other way. What I can't accept is the idea of a God who might have existed or might not have... that kind of being, to me, can't really be God. God must be a basic fact about existence... or a basic fallacy about existence. And if this is true, if God's modality must be as a basic reality which is compatible with all other actual and possible realities, it follows that no empirical arguments can demonstrate either that God exists or that he does not exist. Since, that is, God is the necessarily existent who is therefore tolerant of all empirical realities, his existence can be neither verified nor falsified empirically.

The best that can be done, then, is some sort of rationalistic argument for or against God -- a metaphysical system which attempts to make sense of the universe from top to bottom. The idea of doing metaphysics is passe nowadays, probably because we are more aware than ever of how much we don't know. But any scientific theory rests on the shoulders of a metaphysics -- a comprehensive view of how the universe works -- whether that metaphysics is stated or not. We don't get to ignore the need for metaphysical speculation simply because of the liklihood that we will get very much of it wrong... because it isn't any less wrong when it's unstated. It's just disguised better.

And there are certain basic realities -- such as the emergence of complex organisms -- which science doesn't explain particularly well. Certain theistic theories have a more credible ring to them than any scientific theories I know of.

Allow me now to share some extended passages from Alfred North Whitehead's little book, The Function of Reason. It's only 90 pages long and was originally given as a lecture, though I can't remeber at the moment where and when he gave it. In any case (any emphasis is in orginal):



-----------------------------------------------------

I will start with a preliminary definition of the function of Reason, a definition to be illustrated, distorted, and enlarged, as this discussion proceeds.

The function of Reason is to promote the art of life.

In the interpretation of this definition, I must at once join issue with the evolutionist fallacy suggested by the phrase "the survival of the fittest." The fallacy does not consist in believing that in the struggle for existence the fittest to survive eliminate the less fit. The fact is obvious and stares us in the face. The fallacy is the belief that fitness for survival is identical with the best exemplification of the Art of Life.

In fact life itself is comparatively deficient in survival value. The art of persistence is to be dead. Only inorganic things persist for great lengths of time. A rock survives for eight hundred million years; whereas the limit for a tree is about a thousand years, for a man or an elephant about fifty or one hundred years, for a dog about twelve years, for an insect about one year. The problem set by the doctrine of evolution is to explain how complex organisms with such deficient survival power ever evolved. They certainly did not appear because they were better at that game than the rocks around them. It may be possible to explain "the origin of species" by the doctrine of the struggle for existence among such organisms. But certainly this struggle throws no light whatever upon the emergence of such a general type of complex organism, with faint survival power. This problem is not to be solved by any dogma, which is the product of mere abstract thought elaborating its notions of the fitness of things. The solution requires that thought pay full attention to the empirical evidence, and to the whole of that evidence.

...

There is another factor in evolution which is not in the least explained by the doctrine of the survival of the fittest. Why has the trend of evolution been upwards? The fact that organic species have been produced from inorganic distributions of matter, and the fact that in the lapse of time organic species of higher and higher types have evolved are not in the least explained by any doctrine of adaptation to the environment, or of struggle.

In fact the upward trend has been accompanied by a growth of the converse relation. Animals have progressively undertaken the task of adapting the environment to themselves. They have built nests, and social dwelling-places of great complexity; beavers have cut down trees and dammed rivers; insects have elaborated a high community life with a variety of reactions upon the environment.

Even the more intimate actions of animals are activities modifying the environment. The simplest living things let their food swim into them. The higher animals chase their food, catch it, and masticate it. In so acting, they are transforming the environment for their own purposes. Some animals dig for their food, others stalk their prey. Of course all these operations are meant by the common doctrine of adaptation to the environment. But they are very inadequately expressed by that statement; and the real facts easily drop out of sight under cover of that statement. The higher forms of life are actively engaged in modifying their environment. In the case of mankind this active attack on the environment is the most prominent fact in his existence.

I now state the thesis that the explanation of this active attack on the environment is a three-fold urge: (i) to live, (ii) to live well, (iii) to live better. In fact the art of life is first to be alive, secondly to be alive in a satisfactory way, and thirdly to acquire an increase in satisfaction. It is at this point of our argument that we have to recur to the function of Reason, namely the promotion of the art of life. The primary function of Reason is the direction of the attack on the environment.

This conclusion amounts to the thesis that Reason is a factor in experience which directs and criticizes the urge towards the attainment of an end realized in imagination but not in fact.

-----------------------------------------------------



This explanation, to me, answers the question of why life arose better than any scientific explanation I've heard. Doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't mean I don't still have a lot of questions. It just seems to me to be the most plausible idea I've heard. And this explanation itself fits better with a universe that is somehow directed, or lured, toward a particular mode of existence -- a being which wishes to promote the art of life for its own sake.

In summation... yes, we can both agree that the viewpoint I've expressed is more comfortable than the idea that we die and have not accomplished anything that will persist in any kind of meaningful way. But the fact is this: I wouldn't believe in God if I thought it was any less likely than the notion that there isn't a God. I would prefer truth and despair over self-delusion and happiness.

No one person can ever come close to being an expert in everything, but I think we must all do the best we can to examine all our unstated assumptions about how the universe works. And in my own meager investigations, my own paltry attempt to construct some sort of model for how all of THIS makes sense, THIS reality that we find ourselves a part of, I find theism to be a more credible theory than atheism. Not by a great margin, but enough.

And, as I've already said, if I did consider atheism and theism to truly be completely and totally equal in their liklihood, then I will indeed pick the one that is more comforting... I have nothing to lose by doing so.
 
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