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Orrin Hatch destroys Dan

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I'm aware of your feelings regarding changes in Mormonism and didn't mean for this to turn into a religious bashing session. I don't see how you can't respect a community who by and large promote industry, self reliance, and effective, community based charity. I can also sympathize with the fears of government creep into more and more facets of our lives while promoting laziness and instability.

With that said, I think the current crop in Utah are misguided in their anti-government fervor. There's some cognitive dissonance that takes too much thought for busy and productive people to get over, and good on them for it, really.
 
I have known hatch for the last decade... I swear Utah does not know how lucky they are to have him. Lee is a joke and has no credibility at all. Hatch is good for Utah.
 
I'm aware of your feelings regarding changes in Mormonism and didn't mean for this to turn into a religious bashing session. I don't see how you can't respect a community who by and large promote industry, self reliance, and effective, community based charity. I can also sympathize with the fears of government creep into more and more facets of our lives while promoting laziness and instability.

With that said, I think the current crop in Utah are misguided in their anti-government fervor. There's some cognitive dissonance that takes too much thought for busy and productive people to get over, and good on them for it, really.

Franklin, it's not religious bashing to expose hypocrites for their irreligiosity. whoever they are. I don't have a problem with the Christianity as expounded by Christ. And it's not "fears of government" but simple recognition of the evil principles that underlie bad governance, or bad religious policy or doctrine. And the cognitive dissonance I see in ardent LDS advocates of original US Constitutional intents and the ideals of human liberty is in fact tragic for those who can't cope with the contradictions now present in their circumstances.

It's time for the the LDS people to see the situation for what it is.

Early LDS teachings, as per Joseph Smith, could be seen as tenets of grace and tolerance, with a remarkable lack of ideological imperatives that in human hands can often stunt the humanity of human souls. The Word of Wisdom was advice, not strict command. . . . old doctrines were being looked at in new light generally. . . . dogma was not the "original intent" of Mormonism. Mormons could voluntarily unite in meeting the needs of any day, and in large measure retain their wealth and/or their control of their lives. That is a form of socialism our modern progressives and elitist governance intellectuals have failed to understand or implement. Mormons could, from day to day voice completely opposite opinions and not get called out on it. . . . In short, they were free people who could think for themselves, and resort to practical solutions for any crisis. Not ideological or doctrinal morons stuck on stupid abuses of sometimes inappropriate applications of otherwise useful ideas.

thus LDS leaders have been on record for lots of kindly-meant opinions addressing some aspect of then-existing needs. . . . if you look at them as articles of a catechism and expect Mormons to strictly avoid all contradictions you're never going to get Mormons right, at least in the old days. Today, the whole project of the "correlation committee" is rubbing against that liberty within the Church, as do the policy manuals of the past fifty years . . . . though I consider the recent changes in those instructions to be a refreshing rebirth of liberty and good sense.

In regard to your ideas about redistribution of wealth, as enjoined by BY and others. . . . it was something BY did not practice as he preached. At his death, he left substantial "Church" property, as for example, the Temple block, in the hands of his children, whom he intended to continue in a dynastic rule. Exhortations towards consecration, and experiments in "United Order" economics, were plagued by leadership that often had the practical result of concentration of wealth in the hands of management elites. . . . while many others suffered extreme deprivation. . . . just like is seen today in some of the apostate groups who claim to practice these ideals.

The plain fact is that sentimental expressions of ideals and practical solutions to problems in any day will give rise to variance. . . . to cognitive dissonance. . . . while folks don't deal with the inconsistencies of the situation. And LDS exhortations have always been better understood as pleas for individuals to make choices, not as orders from leadership that must be absolutely obeyed. And LDS leadership has always been clearly failing in practice of what they preach. And none of these proofs of humanity among Mormons has any real significance as proofs against the faith.
 
I have known hatch for the last decade... I swear Utah does not know how lucky they are to have him. Lee is a joke and has no credibility at all. Hatch is good for Utah.

I have known Hatch for four decades. I knew him as dishonest from the start. He boasts of the new data center at Camp Williams as a "plum" he has given us. He is a disgrace to Mormons and Utah. And, no, when he faces his Maker, he won't get way with any claim that he was just stupid.
 
Using government to break down the imbalances created by wealth.

Then:

--Brigham Young, 1855

--Signed by First Presidency and Twelve Apostles, 1875

--- Abraham Lincoln, 1865


Your typical Post-Benson Utah Mormon conservative is diametrically opposed to these statements.

The first quote had to do with church authority in the Utah Territory when separated from any nation, no?

The second quote seems to fit as opposition. It addresses "measures," to stop the accumulation of riches in the hands of a few, but a lot depends on what they mean by those "measures." Also Benson is anti-communism while recognizing that those who are in charge of communism ain't going to be redistributing their own wealth, so it could just be they are on the same side of the equation.

Abraham Lincoln ain't a Mormon unless you count posthumously.

No Joseph Smith quotes to outline his "platform?" He even ran for president.
 
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oink oink oink... Also, when have I ever claimed that I'm a good spokesman for the LDS church? Here's a hint: Never.
Oink oink oink...
So, does having multiple accounts count as being "two faced"? And how exactly does one go about facilitating a bully? I assume you're talking about innerweb bullies, right?
oink oink oink...

You make Mormons look worse than Thriller ever could. You represent Mormons whether officially or not.

How do you facilitate a bully? You support, defend, or protect him. You may allow them to continue their bullying when you have the power to stop it or even join in with them.

I meant the standard definition, but that works too.
 
You make Mormons look worse than Thriller ever could. You represent Mormons whether officially or not.

How do you facilitate a bully? You support, defend, or protect him. You may allow them to continue their bullying when you have the power to stop it or even join in with them.

I meant the standard definition, but that works too.

I feel like this is unbelievably unfair. Saying Trout represents all of Mormondom is like saying Osama Bin Laden represents all of Islam.
 
I feel like this is unbelievably unfair. Saying Trout represents all of Mormondom is like saying Osama Bin Laden represents all of Islam.

statisticians try hard to make perfectly random selections of "representatives" of the group or class they are trying to describe. In an extreme limit, it is mathematically valid to take one example as the analytical set, and use that example as the descriptor of the whole set. However, in good CYA form, they have a second measure of the data. . . . called the variance, or confidence parameters which they use to describe how representative that statistic is. With one data point, the variance is infinite. Therefore, the statistic is virtually worthless, mathematically speaking.

however we humans using what we call common sense are often perfectly willing to make grandly confident assertions not only on one lone real anecdotal observation, but often on an imagined one.

Personally, I feel trout has no room to complain on this one. turnabout is generally considered fair play. I suspect though that he doesn't mind. He's a star, you know, who can afford to say "I don't care what you say about me as long as you spell my name right."

However, I think a large data set would indeed show Trout to be well within the norm of Mormonism with a 1-sigma confidence limit, meaning in the center 67% of the class. And while he plays hard here, I think it is meant for fun. Pearl, that oyster you're in is going to produce a very fine pearl in time, as long as you're this sensitive.
 
The first quote had to do with church authority in the Utah Territory when separated from any nation, no?

The second quote seems to fit as opposition. It addresses "measures," to stop the accumulation of riches in the hands of a few, but a lot depends on what they mean by those "measures." Also Benson is anti-communism while recognizing that those who are in charge of communism ain't going to be redistributing their own wealth, so it could just be they are on the same side of the equation.

Abraham Lincoln ain't a Mormon unless you count posthumously.

No Joseph Smith quotes to outline his "platform?" He even ran for president.

A thorough study of LDS authorities will produce a lot of sentiments spoken from pulpits over the years. It is true that the populist notions of communal economics have not gotten much air in recent times, and that there is too much social shock and awe held out for financial giants in the ranks of the members, and that financial success is the most important qualifier in Mormondom for theological authority nowadays.

But the Lord told Joseph Smith not to get into financial operations, and when he did, he failed miserably, and to his credit he spent the rest of his life trying to pay back the folks who suffered from his ill-advised project. However, his speeches as a politician were not considered theological revelations, just practical proposals for solving current issues. It would have been extremely ill-advised for a politician in that day to speak for financial institutions or interests to the exclusion of the needs of the common folks. So you should expect to find many statements in the records, if they can be found, advocating against the interests of the very rich and very powerful.

Too bad there isn't anyone in the LDS leadership today that will do the same.
 
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I feel like this is unbelievably unfair. Saying Trout represents all of Mormondom is like saying Osama Bin Laden represents all of Islam.

Interesting parallel. Osama did tarnish Islam whether non-violent Muslims think it is fair or not.

You reported Thriller for calling you "weak minded" or something similar, yet your friend Snout makes similar insults daily and you are just fine with it because it aint directed at you.
They both try to defend their religion in very piggish ways, but when Snout hypocritically goes after Thriller for being a bad representation of Mormondom you didn't say a word.
You can't see the double standard?
 
statisticians try hard to make perfectly random selections of "representatives" of the group or class they are trying to describe. In an extreme limit, it is mathematically valid to take one example as the analytical set, and use that example as the descriptor of the whole set. However, in good CYA form, they have a second measure of the data. . . . called the variance, or confidence parameters which they use to describe how representative that statistic is. With one data point, the variance is infinite. Therefore, the statistic is virtually worthless, mathematically speaking.

however we humans using what we call common sense are often perfectly willing to make grandly confident assertions not only on one lone real anecdotal observation, but often on an imagined one.

Personally, I feel trout has no room to complain on this one. turnabout is generally considered fair play. I suspect though that he doesn't mind. He's a star, you know, who can afford to say "I don't care what you say about me as long as you spell my name right."

However, I think a large data set would indeed show Trout to be well within the norm of Mormonism with a 1-sigma confidence limit, meaning in the center 67% of the class. And while he plays hard here, I think it is meant for fun. Pearl, that oyster you're in is going to produce a very fine pearl in time, as long as you're this sensitive.

Isn't saying and doing rude things for the fun of it the very definition of a bully?
God can't see what you do on the internet, though.
 
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