Our Long Term Problem is Our Stars are Limited

[Handlogten's Heros]

I didn’t say driving. I said driving to the rim. His mind-boggling inability to jump off of one foot really prohibits him from doing so.

Its not mind boggling... there are a lot of guys that aren't explosive off of one foot.

 

[Keefe]

Its not mind boggling... there are a lot of guys that aren't explosive off of one foot.

Yeah and they don’t play in the NBA.

 

[Keefe]

Name me three 1’s or 2’s who don’t know how to jump off one foot.

 

[Shad]

I've been thinking about this for a long time and have been meaning to make a thread about it. We can bitch about Conley, Bogey, Ingles, O'Neale, Niang and Bradley all we want, and they've definitely all had their fair share of ups and downs and deserve some criticism, but honestly, a team can only go as far as it's stars take it. Right now our stars just aren't as good as the stars on most of the top NBA teams and they may never be. I'm beginning to think it might not matter who we put around them, the ceiling of Rudy and Donovan might be a 4 or 5 seed and the second round of the playoffs. It kind of reminds me of the D-Will/Boozer teams, as good as those two guy's were, they were never quite good enough to make us true title contenders.

There could be an argument that Boozer/DWill is CURRENTLY a better squad than Gobert/Donovan

 

[Beer]

Maybe. I think he moves toward space instead of jumping sideways into dudes chests like Harden and other dudes do. I think he gets a lot of body contact before getting to the rim that goes uncalled... the type of **** Lou will gets because he's tiny and he will feel the guy on him and just shoot it.

He does try to euro step into space so I get it... I think most of the time his purpose isn't to avoid contact but to find open lanes. Like I don't think he is scared by it. He can do a lot to improve at the rim... even some of the stuff JC does where he stops and kinda pivots around...

I don't think he is a *****. I just don't think he is playing smart. When you get in there against a bunch of 7 footers, a fadeaway floater is not the most effective thing to do. He needs to pull up at the free throw line, which he is very good at, or take it into shot blockers chests. But the way he is playing now is way way to inefficient for him to become an elite scorer.

It's annoying but drawing fouls is effective and puts more pressure on the other team than shooting 40% from 8 feet.

 

[Keefe]

To play Devil’s advocate, how much better would we be with say Marcus Morris starting on this squad? How much of a difference would he make so far as being a defensive presence at the 4, monumentally improving our toughness, providing more lineup flexibility, and being one more legit rotation player?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

You need two way stars without major limitations. I don't think DM has major limitations... but he doesn't have the impact that Rudy can have... yet. I think Rudy has some limitations that will prevent us from getting to the highest levels, unless we get an elite setup man like CP.

I think we have some of the good role players too... just not enough two way role players.

The league is tough right now... and it will be tough in the future.

Dwight Howard, who took a team to the Finals (in the EC) and was an MVP-caliber player, has the same limitations that Rudy has. There was a stretch this season where Rudy was putting up 21p/16r/3bl like prime D12. Jazz need a high-impact wing to put between Rudy and Donovan.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

To play Devil’s advocate, how much better would we be with say Marcus Morris starting on this squad? How much of a difference would he make so far as being a defensive presence at the 4, monumentally improving our toughness, providing more lineup flexibility, and being one more legit rotation player?

Marcus Morris isn't the guy. I'd like Jason Tatum though.

 

[Keefe]

Marcus Morris isn't the guy. I'd like Jason Tatum though.

Yeah, and I’d love Lebron.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Donovan is a complete player. So many around here take him for granted. Yes, he's still raw in some areas, but he is trying to do it all right now on a roster that seems to lack an identity.

Physically, he's a much bigger, better athlete than almost every 6'1" star type player we've seen. Donovan is 30+ pounds heavier than Chris Paul, 40+ pounds more than AI, 20 pounds heavier than Kyrie, Kemba, etc. Once he learns to balance out strength versus drawing the foul, I think he could be extremely special. That balance is/was key for guys like LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, Wade. Those guys learned to apply the strength some and "draw" the foul some.

If Mitchell could model his game in some ways after Harden, he could be one of the best players in the game. Harden shot up from 6FTA per game his 3rd year to 10+. If Donovan could go from 5FTA per game to around 10, we probably have 5 more wins this year. Harden learned how to get calls. Donovan could do the same. They are almost the same weight although of course Harden is taller. Donovan is a much better defender.

There is so much more growth possible for Donovan. As for Gobert, he is what he is. If he doesn't take over some in the playoffs, he's not our 2nd option for the future.

The comp for Mitchell might be young Derrick Rose. The comp for the Jazz right now might be something like the 60-win Bulls team with Rose, Joaquim Noah and Luol Deng.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Yeah, and I’d love Lebron.

Well, that's how tough it is to go all the way.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

That's true but how do we add another star with the assets we have? We took our shot with Conley and now we're pretty much screwed. Toronto got a top 3 player in Kawhi, that's not possible for the Jazz.

Same as any other team--draft, trade and free agency. If a big-time FA wanted to come to Utah, the Jazz would dump Conley's contract even if it cost 2 picks to do it.

Philadelphia threw money at both Al Horford and Tobias Harris and whiffed on both deals, in terms of improving their ability to contend.

 

[Jingled]

There could be an argument that Boozer/DWill is CURRENTLY a better squad than Gobert/Donovan

Honestly I think the D-Will/Boozer team would probably beat this current squad in a 7 game series.

 

[mellow]

So, the Fault is in Our Stars?

We all wish for a championship, but I've heard that "The world is not a wish-granting factory."

As an NBA fan, you don't get to choose if you get disappointed in this world...but you do have some say in who disappoints you.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Giannis is probably thinking, "If I had Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell on my team, I think we'd win the chip."

 

[LoPo]

The comp for Mitchell might be young Derrick Rose. The comp for the Jazz right now might be something like the 60-win Bulls team with Rose, Joaquim Noah and Luol Deng.

I could see that although Donovan is about 20 pounds bigger than Rose and not quite as explosive. But the following is crazy...

Rose won the MVP in his 3rd year scoring 25ppg with 7.7apg and 4.1rpg. That was with everything running through him and him playing 37.4 minutes per night. We don't run offense through Donovan half the time he's in the game. He's playing 3 less minutes per game than Rose did his MVP year. Donovan is scoring only 1ppg less than Rose but is getting more rebounds. Rose had 3 more apg and more turnovers, but he's also handling the ball every single possession.

Donovan is really having a fantastic season.

 

[carolinajazz]

Look I love DM and Rudy... and there are very few stars that aren't a little limited so this is probably kind of unfair... I mean hell even Giannis struggles at times because his shot isn't good enough.

BUT I think the reason we likely don't become a true contender is our stars are limited. If you stars are limited then you can't force the best teams to bend to your will.

Had we kept Rubio and Darius and just added Clarkson and Bogy we would have won 55 games this year. We didn't need to spend all that money on Conley and trade all those players to get him, either!

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The following is a list of players who could make the current Jazz a legit contender if they were somehow added to the team: Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi, Siakam, Doncic, Paul George, James Harden, Dame Lillard, Anthony Davis, Steph Curry, Zion Williamson, and maybe Ben Simmons. I'm on the fence with guys like Jimmy Butler, Brandon Ingram, Ja Morant, Klay Thompson, Brad Beal or Devin Booker.

So I'm saying that basically a team needs 3 All Stars to be real contenders, or 2 All Stars if they're both All NBA 1st-team players. No one is going to trade to us a player of that caliber. We'd have to draft him or win him over in free agency.

 

[NAOS]

The following is a list of players who could make the current Jazz a legit contender if they were somehow added to the team: Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi, Siakam, Doncic, Paul George, James Harden, Dame Lillard, Anthony Davis, Steph Curry, Zion Williamson, and maybe Ben Simmons. I'm on the fence with guys like Jimmy Butler, Brandon Ingram, Ja Morant, Klay Thompson, Brad Beal or Devin Booker.

So I'm saying that basically a team needs 3 All Stars to be real contenders, or 2 All Stars if they're both All NBA 1st-team players. No one is going to trade to us a player of that caliber. We'd have to draft him or win him over in free agency.

Actually, if we’re talking about the title window for this core, we’re not drafting that guy either. We don’t have the draft capital, and he wouldn’t be ready.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

I think you have to have not just a star, but a superstar. Someone who can't be game planned into being irrelevant. We don't have that, yet. Rudy will never be that guy but can compliment the person who is. Donovan needs that 6'7 wing who plays both says really well to become that person.