Paris under attack

[Siro]

If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

As long as this version of Islam survives, nobody is secure. What's a few hundred thousand refuges compared to tens of millions of Muslims already living in Europe? Terrorism is easy. All it takes is one person with the will and a knife.

I don't know how to turn Muslims toward a more reasonable path. It is what the world should be thinking about and working at. But there are no easy solution and too many conflicting interests. The best thing that can be done is stopping military intervention in the region that seems only to make things worse and worse, pull financial and political support for the awful regimes that fuel the conflicts, and covertly support budding liberalization movements whenever they spring forth. But like I said, too many conflicting interests. The situation won't get better for a long time.

 

[Jamezz]

If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

As long as this version of Islam survives, nobody is secure. What's a few hundred thousand refuges compared to tens of millions of Muslims already living in Europe? Terrorism is easy. All it takes is one person with the will and a knife.

I don't know how to turn Muslims toward a more reasonable path. It is what the world should be thinking about and working at. But there are no easy solution and too many conflicting interests. The best thing that can be done is stopping military intervention in the region that seems only to make things worse and worse, pull financial and political support for the awful regimes that fuel the conflicts, and covertly support budding liberalization movements whenever they spring forth. But like I said, too many conflicting interests. The situation won't get better for a long time.

I agree, interventionism in the area seems to have made things worse. I don't think American citizens would be very happy if a foreign country dropped bombs in populated areas of the US, no matter how well targeted those bomb strikes were. The US needs to hop off the police of the world train. Yet meanwhile:

https://thinkprogress.org/world/201...-with-more-tolerance-for-civilian-casualties/

I mean seriously, more tolerance for civilian casualties? Sick world we live in...

 

[Red]

While I'm sure you're right that the actual refugees had noting to do with this, it is simply a fact that the flood of refugees made it easier for the terrorists to hide and organize in plain sight. It is truly a terrible dilemma we are faced with. The proper reaction is to embrace and care for the good people as much as we are able, while destroying the bad people. Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to tell the difference until the bad group is doing something evil. By then it will usually be too late.

Well, I may need to stand corrected, Joe:


https://www.slate.com/blogs/the_sla..._have_entered_europe_as_a_syrian_refugee.html

"In one piece of evidence that could end up pushing a dramatic shift in how Europe handles the ongoing refugee crisis, the Syrian passport found next to the body of one of the suicide bombers was registered on the Greek island of Leros. The owner of the passport was a young man who apparently arrived in Leros with a group of 69 refugees, a source tells Reuters. It is so far unclear whether the passport was later checked in other European countries, points out Bloomberg. Some are urging caution with the information, noting there’s no confirmation the person who held the passport was actually an attacker."

 

[Gameface]

I like you Dal, even though we are butting heads a lot ideologically. The way I see it the government's primary responsibility is to protect it's own citizens, not the refugees. Yes, that's cold, but this is a time of crisis and we must take things a step at a time. Just using America as an example, it's likely that we already have citizens who might try to do our population harm from within, but it's far more likely that non-citizens would take this step. So the first thing any country that wants to get this problem under control must do is secure its borders. We cannot have people flooding into our country illegally. France can't afford to have this happen either, even if the ratio is only 100 bad guys to millions of refugees. The reason is that it doesn't take anywhere near 100 terrorists to wreak devastating havoc.

I agree that wallpapering the places they live in bombs is not a good solution, and I agree that stopping the supply of money and arms is paramount. All of the questions that you ask are appropriate, but we have to take the obvious steps to prevent future attacks. It is a terrible dilemma this world is faced with. I love France and visit often. I'm afraid of how much it is going to be changed by these events.

As far as securing the borders is concerned, I think the actual first step is to facilitate legal immigration at the scale that immigration is happening illegally and legally. Once you are allowing immigration legally at the rate that it is actually happening you can then use your legal immigration infrastructure to screen out threats. And since you don't have waves of harmless people risking their lives to cross your boarders illegally anymore it should be easier to actually secure the boarders.

But that's never what I hear. All I ever hear is how illegal immigration is illegal (their braking our laws! oh my) and that we need to shut it down. And whenever I've tried to have a rational discussion about it with someone supporting the securing of our boarders it becomes quickly apparent that they cannot accept any of the methods that allow "those people" into "their country" and it seems pretty obvious that they just don't want "them" here.

Well, if that's true, have fun standing against the tide. But it's never going to work. We need to allow the innocent people who want to be here to be here. This idea that we own the opportunities, the liberties and the security that exist here is wrong, in my opinion. It belongs to humanity. We're all humans.

 

[MVP]

If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

Hey Siro, I never said Syrians in particular are a problem. I read and interview from refugee camp worker in Germany and he specifically mentioned that Syrians and Eritreans are the best and would be easiest to integrate in Europe. The problem is that fake Syrian passports are now the best business in Middle East and thousands of people entering Europe and pretending to be Syrians have no passports or ID's at all! How you can sort them out and make sure that it is good people coming? It is unfortunate for good people but situation is like with cancer - you cut a lot of healthy tissue with it in order to get rid of it.

 

[Gameface]

Where did I say Muslim? And how is that racist? Protecting country's national identity and safety should be a priority. Especially for small countries. That's why Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Czech republic and most of other Eastern European countries are refusing to take any refugees. They know what could happen.

This, to me, is the national identity of the U.S.

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

 

[Red]

Of the 8 attackers, a Syrian refugee, a French national, an Egyptian:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

 

[MVP]

This, to me, is the national identity of the U.S.

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

So how many refugees Obama promised to take?

 

[Gameface]

So how many refugees Obama promised to take?

I bet I can piss farther than you can!

 

[Siro]

Hey Siro, I never said Syrians in particular are a problem. I read and interview from refugee camp worker in Germany and he specifically mentioned that Syrians and Eritreans are the best and would be easiest to integrate in Europe. The problem is that fake Syrian passports are now the best business in Middle East and thousands of people entering Europe and pretending to be Syrians have no passports or ID's at all! How you can sort them out and make sure that it is good people coming? It is unfortunate for good people but situation is like with cancer - you cut a lot of healthy tissue with it in order to get rid of it.

And how many legit refuges (this healthy tissue you cut away) will be forced to join the ranks of ISIS once they're turned away with nothing to do and nowhere to go? How many of those will sneak to Europe illegally to carry out attacks, or use social media to convince European Muslims to do their bidding for them? It didn't take a refuge crisis for terrorists to strike in the NYC, London, or Madrid.

Your suggestions may save a few lives. At best. But it is no solution. It is just a reaction that might give you comfort, but the world is not better off with closed borders than it was with open ones.

 

[Sidebottom2beams]

The problem isn't Islamic people.
The problem is the US keep bumping off the leaders who kept this under control.

There is no Isis if Saddam is still kicking.
There'd be no Isis in Libiya under Gadaffi.
Next on the agenda Assad.

 

[Jamezz]

Some food for thought, aside from her doll face:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFnvFbThDE