All depends on the shooter and gun in question. But we are getting far afield. It is plausible that it can take that many rounds to stop an adult male.
Police Power and Racial Tensions in Ferguson, Missouri
- Thread starter HighlandHomie
- Start date
All depends on the shooter and gun in question. But we are getting far afield. It is plausible that it can take that many rounds to stop an adult male.
granted
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
Wow, okay. I'm pretty liberal about the amount of force a cop should be able to use in this situation. This is going to sound insensitive, but they should've been given freedom, for lack of a better word, to shoot to kill imo.
That said, those last 2-4 rounds are well after the guy has fallen to the ground. Especially the last two. Just way excessive imo.
Now, based on the state of mind of the officers, their adrenaline, the victim's criminal history if he has one, his bio (could be schizo or something based on some of the nutty **** he was saying), things of that nature, I'm not sure you could or should charge these cops with murder or the like. Maybe. That's a tough call. I think I'd lean toward no, though. But as the Chief of Police of St. Louis, I would be thinking long and hard about suspending these cops indefinitely, probably with pay. And a firing isn't out of the question.
If I'm these cops, I would be fearing for me and my family's life for eternity.
Basically for me, it's excessive but I can rationalize it and therefore don't find it criminal.
That said, those last 2-4 rounds are well after the guy has fallen to the ground. Especially the last two. Just way excessive imo.
Now, based on the state of mind of the officers, their adrenaline, the victim's criminal history if he has one, his bio (could be schizo or something based on some of the nutty **** he was saying), things of that nature, I'm not sure you could or should charge these cops with murder or the like. Maybe. That's a tough call. I think I'd lean toward no, though. But as the Chief of Police of St. Louis, I would be thinking long and hard about suspending these cops indefinitely, probably with pay. And a firing isn't out of the question.
If I'm these cops, I would be fearing for me and my family's life for eternity.
Basically for me, it's excessive but I can rationalize it and therefore don't find it criminal.
If the person was dead (or would have died) from the seventh shot, is a person a murderer for firing two more shots? It is not at all uncommon for a person in a life of death situation to continue shooting until they run out of rounds. When asked later they often say they shot two or three times and are surprised that they shot 10-12 times.
LogGrad98
Well-Known Member
Contributor
20-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
2024 Award Winner
This is where I think the body cam would play a role. When the guy went down he looked at first like he stumbled. From the perspective of the cop closest to him it may have appeared the guy was lunging at him, which would heighten the tension and cause him to squeeze off 2 more rounds easily without thinking about it.
Just for fun, for lack of a better term, I was able to talk to a friend of mine in the Sparks police department this morning who I know has been involved in a fatal shooting before (he used to be a cop in L.A., rarely do cops in Reno or Sparks have to draw like that) and he told me that he hadn't seen the footage but that if a perpetrator was coming at him with a weapon (knife or gun or bat or whatever) and wouldn't respond at all to instructions and was yelling "shoot me" then turned and came at him, he would empty at least half of his clip, due to training and experience. He said they train to put between 3 and 9 rounds on target in a matter of seconds and I have seen this guy at the range, and he is an excellent shot. He could easily put 6 or 8 rounds within a few seconds in a space the size of a dinner plate on a moving target at 20 feet or so. He said they train until it is ingrained, and little thought is required.
I do remember him telling me about his shooting he was involved in. After the fact he guessed he had shot 3 or 4 rounds, but in reality had come within 1 round of emptying his gun. In the heat of the moment I doubt that counting rounds is on their mind at all, and stopping the perpetrator is.
I guess personally the only experience I have with this is my martial arts training. As I have mentioned on the board before, in my mid-20's to mid-30's I was fairly heavily involved in krav maga. Some things get drilled into you so much in that type of training that it becomes second nature. When I was about 30 or so I was just wrestling around with some friends at a picnic/reunion of sorts one summer when I had been training pretty frequently thinking about entering an open form tournament (precursor to MMA I guess you would say) and one guy got behind me and tried to put on like a chokehold. I just reacted, got ahold of his wrist, spun under and away and came back up with an elbow to his face, breaking his nose. I didn't mean to do it, and didn't even think about it, it just happened so fast I couldn't really stop myself. I felt terrible about it. I figure for the cops it has to be very similar, that when the moment strikes the training and muscle memory take over and what happens happens.
It isn't in any way an excuse for poor judgement or letting a situation get away from them before it ends up being a fatal decision, but I can understand how once the thing starts they may have fired 2-4 rounds that may to us seem excessive.
edit: Had to add this edit...I didn't seek out my friend, I actually ran into him at Maverik on my way to work...he was getting donuts. No joke. We had a good laugh about that.
One has to also look at the amount of time that lapsed form the first shot to the last shot. Also the time between shots. All of the shots are in extremely quick succession in this case. They did not shoot him 3-4 times, wait then shoot him 2 more then wait and shoot him another 3-4 times. They shot all the rounds within what 3-5 seconds? That is insanely fast in real time when a man is coming at you with a knife. Especially after the warned him repeatedly to show his hands and drop the knife. The man then advances on one of the officers and when he is within 4-5 feet.
I have watched this with an ex-officer and he stated two things.
1. 21 foot rule for an individual with a weapon. Cops don't want them within 21 feet. This man was entering lounging distance and was 5 feet(?) away.
2. The cuffing after the shooting, that is training and procedure. Officers shoot to eliminate the threat he said and cuffing is part of that. He then cited officers that failed to cuff a suspect that had been shot and end up getting killed with the suspect grabs their gun as they approach. Thsi is also why the other officer has his gun trtained on the suspect while his partner cuffs the suspect.
I thought the cuffing part was interesting.
Now I have not counted the bullets fired but 9 is being used in this thread. Well we have two shooters. So that is 4.5 rounds per officer, less rounds then it took to kill Mr. Brown (6).
Each officer is independently acting to end the threat. Not waiting for their partner to do so.
I see this as an intentional suicide by cop. This man put the officers into a position where they had to act, they did so. I would not even have them charged with a crime. There will be, and should be, an investigation into the shooting however.
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
IMO, no. I've conceded that. To play armchair cop and judge what they should do in those tenths of seconds is ludicrous imo. All the training in the world can't totally prepare you for that.
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
My problem with body cams is cost and perception. Hypothetically, one for every cop in this country would cost billions upon billions I would think. And virtually every state is already in massive debt. I also think every single act caught on camera would be scrutinized and cops would be held under the most ridiculous microscope, and in turn, there would be more widespread hate for law enforcement than there already is.
FWIW I have heard this 21 foot rule many many times. A man with a knife can close 21 feet and stab you before even a trained person can draw and fire their gun. Many people think gun trumps knife all the time, but it's just not true.
I know America is a police state and the citizens have been taught to accept them and their powers/privileges so what just happens in that video may be seem sensible to Americans but it's just way too much for me. I'm not even going to argue about it and the circumstances of the incident because I know we are on totally different plates here.
I've been reading, watching and listening all the pro-cops arguments about this incident over the internet for the last few hours and no, none of them made my mind even slightly move towards the shooting cops. I hate the thing in that video with my whole mind, hearth and soul. And nothing can change my mind that it's a straight up murder.
Call me biased.
I've been reading, watching and listening all the pro-cops arguments about this incident over the internet for the last few hours and no, none of them made my mind even slightly move towards the shooting cops. I hate the thing in that video with my whole mind, hearth and soul. And nothing can change my mind that it's a straight up murder.
Call me biased.
J
JAZZGASM
Guest
It depends on how you look at it. What about the cost of guns, uniforms, etc. I think a camera should be a necessary component. Many police forces installed cameras in cars or on officers and changed policies that previously required two officers at every incident. That saves a lot of money.
And yes, cops that do stupid **** will get scrutinized, but I'm sorry, that risk comes with the added power and responsibility. A cop that shoots someone gets deference over the common citizen that does the same. Often when they are the only witness. (think Geist in SLC). A body cam would require officers to be prudent and reasonable. And if they aren't, there needs to be consequences.
J
JAZZGASM
Guest
Try telling that to the cops or Army who hate 9mm. The DOD is working on replacing all of the 9mm Berettas with a higher power pistol due to many complaints. Generally 9mm firearms are selected due to lower cost. Cops need to do a lot of range practice, and 9mm rounds are substantially cheaper than .40 or .45.
The +p rounds have more penetration power, but not stopping power. You need larger grained bullets for that. So a +p could go through someone, but may not stop them. The majority of handgun rounds are ineffective in this regard. That is why officers are trained to fire more than once.