Ok, then answer the questions. How can we have to do things to be saved, and not do things to be saved at the same time?
Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.
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Ok, then answer the questions. How can we have to do things to be saved, and not do things to be saved at the same time?
RandyForRubio
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I'll answer it with another question: when Jesus said that, who had made the sacrifice for us yet? Why are we able to be saved through faith and grace? Because Jesus died for us. That doesn't mean we don't have to follow His commandments though, Jesus said "If you love me, follow my commandments".
To take more credence in one what part of the Bible says over another is folly. It is all from the same source.
There's a huge difference between saying you disagree with someone, and saying that that person/religion is not Christian. I'm fine with you saying you disagree with Catholicism. Or Mormonism, for that matter. But by any reasonable definition both Catholics and Mormons are still Christian.
By that logic, I'm pretty sure that Jesus also said "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." And "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
Anyway, you might be unaware that the LDS church also teaches that we are saved by grace. We are also judged by our works. And if your works are evil, Christ's grace won't save you.
Amen to that. That's why we're wondering why you're giving more credence to Paul's epistles than to James, Matthew, Revelation, etc.
You are avoiding. Do you have to keep the commandments to be saved, or not?
Really just trying to pin you down to understand where you are coming from, not trying to bash.
LogGrad98
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I like the faith side of the coin over the works side. It is a lower standard. If you are saved by faith alone and there is no requirement for any works, just those you feel like doing, that is a lot easier than holding yourself to a certain standard of behavior all the freaking time. Less to repent for. Less reason to feel guilty. Less stuff to worry about.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
I'll answer both of you here.
1) I'm not giving more credence to Paul, I'm using Paul as evidence for how people misuse James.
2) Do you have to keep the commandments to be saved? If you're asking if I have to be perfect, the answer is no. Keeping the commandments is evidence that we have faith in God, evidence that we are saved. Outward, physical evidence. A man can have good works but no faith, and is he just as lost as the man who has faith but no works. Why? Because it is impossible to have true faith without being compelled by the HS to do works!
If you see a man that claims to follow God, claims to have faith, but his life hasn't been changed, then he is just like the Pharisees. That is why James says that faith without works is dead! If you have true faith, your life is impacted in such a way that you cannot help but want to follow God's commandments. What a wonderful gift. That is why Paul says that our works don't earn us anything, because 1) you can't earn salvation, and 2) our good works are compelled by our salvation.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
Exactly who is saying this is how it goes? Is there anybody here saying that?
You just described Mormon theology on grace and works.
RandyForRubio
Well-Known Member
I always find it interesting how Mormons include so many others in Christianity when Joseph Smith himself said that he has the only correct religion.
Anyways, Colton, I think you're a wonderful man. You're a good, kind and loving father. You're patient, yet firm. I truly enjoy our talks. Maybe that's why I've always been hesitant to say this, because I am afraid to offend you, but Paul tells us to speak with boldness, so I will. I cannot view a religion where the founding members were heretics who went against the Word of God as Christians. The religions are close, but they are so different at the same time. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others have been proven to be false prophets, and I do not view their words or their faith as being from God. You see, their works are also being judged.
Those are not one and the same.
Straight up question. Do you consider Mother Teresa to be a Christian?
While she was not part of the Mormon religion I think she did her best to follow Christ. I'd call her a Christian. She lived a more Chirst like life then almost anyone I can name. Even if I think she had parts of it wrong.
I see your stance on Mormons not being Christians. Fine, you are entitled to it. I truly believe you have no more a claim to Christianity that Catholicsm Mormons, Lutherans, Baptists....
In short I think you are being very narrow minded and absolutely, 100% wrong. And you are still my friend. No hard feelings.
Just addressing the first line.
Imo a Christian is a person that believes in Christ as the Messiah, and who tries to the best of their ability to follow his teachings.
Believing that what I follow has the fullness of the Gospel doesn't really factor in to whether someone else believes in Christ and follows him as they see fit. It's okay is someone believes differently than I do, I can still love them and appreciate them for who they are, and recognize they are Christian despite having some different views on what that means.
Being a Christian is more about a belief in Christ than "being right".
/2cents