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Quit overrating the 12 pick. It sucks.

green said:
Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
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Wiggins > asset than love
 
green said:
Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Click to expand...

What you are failing to do is account for the situations involved. Cleveland just resigned the best player in the league which completely shifted their timetable for a title run. I highly doubt they pull that trade off if LeBron stays in Mia or goes to another team.

There's no sure thing other wise every time would go 41-41 every year. However smart teams have plans in place and their moves are always inline with said plan.
 
BTP said:
Greg Oden didnt suck because of basketball reasons unlike most of the other guys on that list. I think that statement is very shortsighted...

Different note:
I don't think the draft is a crapshoot, but rather that GMs like to gamble. If you find that special player late in the draft he'll propel the trajectory of your current roster in a different way than an average, but productive player would have.

Some GMs nowadays focus on market inefficiencies and trends.
There have been 3 big trends in the last decade since the league found out that (advanced) numbers dont lie.
1) Team defense. It's not a problem if you can't stay in front of a lot of guys in the league. But you gotta try to force him to a point where he shoots at a lower %. Individual defense is only a problem if you're up against the top10 offensive players in the world. You specifically need guys for these assignments if your best players is worse than the opponents best player.
2) Long range shooting. Nuff said.
3) Multi layered attack schemes. "Old" offenses partially had that as well like the triangle, but in a way too predictable way.
Simple pick and rolls are also too predictable unless your ballhandlers are really dangerous shooters off the dribble(compare: Curry, Steph; Nash, Steve). These pin down schemes for guys who aren't the best ballhandlers that enable them to get to the rim with 1 or 2 dribbles and give them a headstart are super nice.
I don't know who did them first(Probably San Antonio, but Ginobili is an awesome ballhandler without a headstart, so IDK)
I noticed them first with the Raptors when I realized how Casey let his guys run Horns last season and if it didnt generate a good shot or a gap to hit a rolling big to the rim, you could use it to free up DeMar DeRozan, who is not careful with the ball at all, to become an efficient scorer.
Since then Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Arron Afflalo(Orlando), Wes Matthews have found ways to elevate their careers to new highs and added unprecedented value to their respective teams.
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Oden was a number one pick who didn't work out. In the big picture it doesn't matter why.
 
green said:
Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Click to expand...
Sounds more like a recipe for mediocrity to me. The reason the Wiggins trade made sense for Cleveland is that they needed to build a team around LBJ immediately, not because Love is worth more than Wiggins. There is a very, very good chance that Minnesota won that trade.

What I disagree with is your assertion that these offers (particularly Batum) are more valuable to Utah than the 12th pick, and I especially disagree with your assertion that that is the case because of the players who have previously been drafted at 12. I could give you a long list of players drafted 12 or later who would be more valuable to the Jazz than either Batum or Barnes, but that would be just as useless as your irrelevant "proof" that we should do the trades you propose.
 
green said:
Nothing makes the #12 pick so foreboding. I'd be saying the same thing if we had the #10 pick. Or the #11. Or the #12. What makes the #12 pick what it is, is the fact that WE OWN THE PICK.

I am a doctor because I am smarter than you and work harder than you. Thats how. Pretty simple stuff. Be smart and work hard and you too can be a doctor. I did that. you didn't.
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What an *** you're turning out to be.
 
green said:
So, you take the risk that one if 14 will end up being an ok player (Burks). OR, you pay a little more and guarantee the pick becomes a starter. Easy choice. IF you can trade it for a player like Barnes or Batum, you do it. You don't think twice.
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Batum won't start for this team. So your not trading it for a starter. Your trading it for a depth position and **** loads of money for 1 year. We better be getting not giving in that situation.
 
green said:
Exactly my point.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Click to expand...

Probably shouldn't use the worse trade this season as your example. Trading for Love was a bad choice by Cleveland, I mean Lebron.

This team would be mired in mediocrity forever if they used this philosphy. If your logic is so sound why doesn't every team always trade their picks? You can always get a player that is decent for a pick that could be someone good. Swing for the fences with the pick and hope you get someone great. If they are a bust, oh well. You dont trade your pick for depth unless you are a contending team. We can fill depth in FA if needed.
 
green said:
Exactly my point. IF you have the #1 pick, and someone offers you a player that is the #1 level or better, you take it.

Just like if you have #12, and someone offers you Barnes or Batum, you trade it. Even the #1 pick is no guarantee of success. Trading the #1 pick for a current All Pro is a better risk.

Look at Cleveland. Maybe Wiggins becomes the next Jordan. Maybe he sucks. Kevin Love is an All Pro PF. Make the trade. Love is a guarantee. Wiggins is a dream.
Click to expand...
Could you come up with a worse example to illustrate your point?
 
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