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Roe v. Wade is going down

What right does the mother have to force the fetus to be in her womb?
None. The fetus should be free to try and implant anywhere.

Or to end its life?
Self-defense.

So her right to not be used by the fetus outweighs the fetus' right to not be killed, even while the fetus never made that choice?
The rights of one person don't outweigh the rights of another. We all have an equal right to live, and an equal right to not be used as a food source by other people.

Yeah this is a circular argument that has no end and no solution. This is really where the discussion completely breaks down for most people and why it is best to leave this kind of decision up to the mother since there is no way to settle these issues.
Agreed. I am offering my take, but I don't expect many to agree.
 
I think you're being alarmist and taking focus away from the real issues here. What would an investigation into a possible miscarriage/abortion look like? Did that exist before? Is anyone talking about doing that. Would they force the woman to get a medical examination to maybe prove that it was an abortion? Are states abortion restrictions worded in such a way as to establish anything like this?
One of the justices who was credibly accused of sexual harassment is married to a goddamn insurrectionist. He still gets to weigh in on crimes that his own wife participated in without any accountability. This is insane!

It's funny how so many of us on the left have been proven right despite being called alarmists for several years now. We were right about Trump. We were right about the justices. I think the failure of imagination is what's astonishing to me. Yes, absolutely, LGBT rights are going to be shredded. Yes, absolutely, women, minorities, and liberals will continue to have stomped on by this activist Republican court that has a ton of cultural grievances. Why else did the Federalist Society promote them?

Women are currently being investigated for miscarriages

There are organizations founded to help women combat prosecution for miscarrying:

Finally, this only reinforces a stratified society; men on top women below. Women miscarrying are currently having to go through hell to defend themselves from prosecution due to laws like we see in Texas. It’s yet another completely unnecessary hardship they have to endure because of this weird Christian nationalism that has taken hold of the right in this country.
 
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Some of us live in Illinois, which is not Canada, but endurable.
Canada's climate might also become more habitable than our own. When it's not hot in Utah, we're covered in toxic dust from the GSL's dried lakebed. When it's not hot and dusty, we're choking on winter inversions.
 
USA is becoming more and more appalling as a country. Sorry for all good folks living there. Come to Canada. We may not be perfect but it would be major improvement over what you have in USA now.
No thanks, I like Colorado.
 
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None. The fetus should be free to try and implant anywhere.


Self-defense.


The rights of one person don't outweigh the rights of another. We all have an equal right to live, and an equal right to not be used as a food source by other people.


Agreed. I am offering my take, but I don't expect many to agree.
The self-defense one is interesting. Another interesting question: is killing the child a form of child abuse? If I found a child eating my food at my house without my permission and killed it that would be viewed as murder, so what is the difference? Even if I woke up and found a child had cut a vein and was sucking my blood and I killed it, would that be viewed as self-defense? What if the child came to be in that situation because I placed it there without giving it a choice? Does that change the judgement of the response to killing it?

This is an insane philosophical discussion, and I am sure there are tons of stuff written about it out there already from all sides. In the end there is no real solution to this conundrum, other than what one chooses to believe for whatever reason. Which is why it needs to be left to the mother to decide as she has to live with the consequences and we will never get any kind of consensus on the rights of a fetus.
 
If I found a child eating my food at my house without my permission and killed it that would be viewed as murder, so what is the difference?
Would you? That might depend on whether you felt your life was in danger, and whether there were other steps you could take/should take first. It might vary from state-to-state.

Even if I woke up and found a child had cut a vein and was sucking my blood and I killed it, would that be viewed as self-defense?
A child as opposed an adult. Do you have less of a right to self-defense against children? Again, I'm sure laws vary, but in most, if you think your life is in danger and can't reasonably avoid getting out of danger any other way, then it is self-defense.

What if the child came to be in that situation because I placed it there without giving it a choice? Does that change the judgement of the response to killing it?
Are we discussing the law or moral judgment? I don't think you cede your right to self-defense.

This is an insane philosophical discussion, and I am sure there are tons of stuff written about it out there already from all sides. In the end there is no real solution to this conundrum, other than what one chooses to believe for whatever reason. Which is why it needs to be left to the mother to decide as she has to live with the consequences and we will never get any kind of consensus on the rights of a fetus.
I agree. I'm happy to offer thought/opinions/answers as I understand them, but don't expect anyone else to agree.
 
They’re not using any form of philosophy other than voicing their cultural grievances through their now majority rulings.

“But it’s not the end of that effort. Associate Justice Clarence Thomas, one of the five conservative justices who voted to strike down Roe, also made it clear that he wants the court to revisit same-sex relationships, marriage equality, and queer rights.

In his concurrence, Thomas wrote that “in future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell. Because any substantive due process decision is ‘demonstrably erroneous,’ ... we have a duty to ‘correct the error’ established in those precedents.”

Obergefell is the 2015 5-4 decision that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. Jim Obergefell, the lead plaintiff in that case, and a candidate for the Ohio state House, criticized Thomas on Friday, noting in a statement that he is “a Supreme Court justice appointed by humans, he is not the Supreme Deity.”

“The millions of loving couples who have the right to marriage equality to form their own families do not need Clarence Thomas imposing his individual twisted morality upon them,” Obergefell wrote. “If you want to see an error in judgment, Clarence Thomas, look in the mirror.”

 
USA is becoming more and more appalling as a country. Sorry for all good folks living there. Come to Canada. We may not be perfect but it would be major improvement over what you have in USA now.
I've looked into it and it isn't so easy to just move to Canada and be allowed to work.
 
I think you're being alarmist and taking focus away from the real issues here. What would an investigation into a possible miscarriage/abortion look like? Did that exist before? Is anyone talking about doing that. Would they force the woman to get a medical examination to maybe prove that it was an abortion? Are states abortion restrictions worded in such a way as to establish anything like this?
Am I being alarmist? Are we sure?

Justice Clarence Thomas argued in a concurring opinion released on Friday that the Supreme Court “should reconsider” its past rulings codifying rights to contraception access, same-sex relationships and same-sex marriage.

The sweeping suggestion from the current court’s longest-serving justice came in the concurring opinion he authored in response to the court’s ruling revoking the constitutional right to abortion, also released on Friday.
I mean they’re saying it out loud, right?
 
“But it’s not the end of that effort. Associate Justice Clarence Thomas, one of the five conservative justices who voted to strike down Roe, also made it clear that he wants the court to revisit same-sex relationships, marriage equality, and queer rights.

In his concurrence, Thomas wrote that “in future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell. Because any substantive due process decision is ‘demonstrably erroneous,’ ... we have a duty to ‘correct the error’ established in those precedents.”

Obergefell is the 2015 5-4 decision that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. Jim Obergefell, the lead plaintiff in that case, and a candidate for the Ohio state House, criticized Thomas on Friday, noting in a statement that he is “a Supreme Court justice appointed by humans, he is not the Supreme Deity.”

“The millions of loving couples who have the right to marriage equality to form their own families do not need Clarence Thomas imposing his individual twisted morality upon them,” Obergefell wrote. “If you want to see an error in judgment, Clarence Thomas, look in the mirror.”

I don’t know how much clearer they can get. They’re telling us right now what’s going to be on the chopping block soon. It’s just… right there. Out in the open. Like when Trump would tell us which crimes he was committing and no one took it seriously because it was done out in the open in front of everyone.

Frankly, I’m getting tired of folks telling us that we’re being alarmist despite us being right about every damn thing in the last several years. We told you trump was a demagogue. We told you he was going to rip people off. We told you he wasn’t going to pass any health care plans or solve any real problems. We told you he wasn’t going to accept the election results. We told you he wasn’t going to go away quietly. And we’re telling folks on this board today that the activist Supreme Court is going to take rights that you take for granted today and run them through a wood chipper because they hate the Current culture. and we’re still being called alarmist?! It’s getting to be ridiculous the lack of imagination many in America continue to have.

Authoritarianism preys on people’s lack of imagination. It can and is happening here. Wake the **** up folks! LGBT rights are going to have their time in the barrel soon.
 
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