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Romney Fundraiser - Secret Taping

As human beings, it is our responsibility to watch out for each other. As an individual, I can't help the guy who is suffering in Denver, but the government can.

There are a few common sense tweeks that need to be made to the welfare system that we use, but even then there will be leeches. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face. (unless you're Slopper, in which case I'd start just below the chin and make my way up) The day that we give up trying to help is the day that we have utterly failed as a race/species/whatever.
 
TroutBum said:
As human beings, it is our responsibility to watch out for each other. As an individual, I can't help the guy who is suffering in Denver, but the government can.
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Oh yeah, the government has shown over the years that they're pro at running almost anything.

Education: Wonderful
Healthcare: Impeccable
Social Security: Perfect
Tax System: Freakin A
Protecting rights: Awesome
Defending the country: Spectacular

I just don't know how else to describe my amazing United States government....
****, I need a tissue now.
 
franklin said:
To preface, black graduation rates are probably the largest contributing factor limiting income mobility in America. Any policy discussion should start there.

We could put in a reward system to get grad rates up, but this could be gamed and produce the opposite result. Putting policies in that lower the hurdle rate so potential can be realized but effect no change go too far.

It's also possible that greater mobility will be a short lived phenomenon. As far as I am concerned, American mobility begins and ends with education availability. Tax policy, safety nets, all the other rhetoric is a distraction to the economic changes underlying the allegedly widening wealth divide. We transitioned from an industrial society where our Lewis Turning Point demanded high wages & on the job training to a surplus of manual labor & more intellectually oriented workforce. That environment benefits the wealthy who have the insight to figure out what changes to make & have the means to fund higher education. Poor people often don't have the first clue about industry & fail to see the benefits of education.

This is my greatest criticism of Obama. He failed miserably at helping the jobless poor transition into modern professions in a time when they needed help the most. Why he and his democratically controlled legislature chose to cut higher education funding while bumping military spending enormously will forever be a mystery to me.

I could agreed we have not realized our existing perfect potential, but the potential is there. Agreed on the second sentence over the last few decades.
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I agree that we need to improve graduation rates for all poor people. Do you acknowledge that being severly poor, having hunger issues, etc. will pull down graduation rates?

I also think you underestimate the effects of example. Let's say that in group A, your probability of acheiving a cdertain level of income are 80% when you matriculate to a certain college, and 40% when you don't. In group B, those numbers are 30% and 15% respectively. Even thought a college education doubles your chances for both, can you see why group B would be less inclined to pursue it, why the "benefits of education" have less meaning for them?

Finally, you did not respond directlhy to my questions on whether there was such a thing as too much income mobility. However, I will answer one of yours that I have given some more thought. Income mobility is a measure, not a goal. Unless you're a professional weightlifter, you don't lift weights for the purpose of lifting more weight, and lifting more weight is not the primary goal. It's a measure of general, overall strength increase.
 
One Brow said:
I was taken aback. You make her arguments far more effectively than she does.
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I honestly do not think she has any interest in making a legit arguement. She is going for shock and wants to put people off. I won't call her a dup account (because I have no knowledge of such) but her goal is the same.
 
TheSilencer1313 said:
Oh yeah, the government has shown over the years that they're pro at running almost anything.

Education: Wonderful
Healthcare: Impeccable
Social Security: Perfect
Tax System: Freakin A
Protecting rights: Awesome
Defending the country: Spectacular

I just don't know how else to describe my amazing United States government....
****, I need a tissue now.
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You forgot the Postal Service...... :)
 
HipHopAnonymous said:
We should hit reset and start over right?
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lol

The post office will never be "fixed". Our society is simply moving away from a need for post offices. Everything is startign to revolve around electroni communitaction. Wether it is videochat, email, fax, text message. This will only increase which decreases the amount of revenue the post office brings in.
 
dalamon said:
b) my purpose wasn't trying to concoct a feel-bad story to try and get people to sympathize with the poor.

I just feel like way too many poor people are stuck in socioeconomic 'ruts', and we have to try and devise a few ways to coax people out of them, particularly inner-city youth, African-American youth, and so on.
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Fully agree. The trouble I run into on the policy front is the effectiveness of the tough love in a stable environment where opportunity is visible, & the failure & corruption of sympathetic policy in unstable environments where hard work never seems to pay off. My question isn't whether or not to help but where to target resources & how to deploy them for maximum benefit.

dalamon said:
Interesting report I;ve read, that you would probably be interested as well frank (as well as anyone else who's interested):https://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2012/Pursuing_American_Dream.pdf

Yes, >80% of people make more money than their parents; however, pay attention to what it says about the stickiness at the sides. I dunno, maybe I shall look further into this issue.
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I've read several such studies & never leave with any answers. I expect the stickiness on both ends & can't fault parents for leaving a better life for their children anymore than I could fault a nation for doing the same. I also see where much more should be done at the poor end, whether it's more focus on stronger families or more help lifting children up the education chain in other ways. I'm also a huge fan of financing these programs with a very progressive inheritance tax structure that skips over the bottom rung 1%ers like PKM and heavily hits the real players at the very top. I'm almost comfortable with a 90% hit on anything over something like $100mm while extending the deduction up to $40mm or so to protect the family owned businesspeople who tend to be closer to their employees.

One Brow said:
I agree that we need to improve graduation rates for all poor people. Do you acknowledge that being severly poor, having hunger issues, etc. will pull down graduation rates?
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Yes.

One Brow said:
I also think you underestimate the effects of example. Let's say that in group A, your probability of acheiving a cdertain level of income are 80% when you matriculate to a certain college, and 40% when you don't. In group B, those numbers are 30% and 15% respectively. Even thought a college education doubles your chances for both, can you see why group B would be less inclined to pursue it, why the "benefits of education" have less meaning for them?
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That hasn't been overlooked. You accused me of playing devils advocate but haven't put up any policy that you believe would help poor children see & realize the benefits. What do you think the answers are?

One Brow said:
Finally, you did not respond directlhy to my questions on whether there was such a thing as too much income mobility. However, I will answer one of yours that I have given some more thought. Income mobility is a measure, not a goal. Unless you're a professional weightlifter, you don't lift weights for the purpose of lifting more weight, and lifting more weight is not the primary goal. It's a measure of general, overall strength increase.
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How is the measure the goal but not the goal?

I do think income mobility is the goal but it can't be measured on an individual basis or optimally defined very easily.
 
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