Rumor: Okur for Deng?

[theNBAnerd]

1 - duncan and gasol are PFs. you could say the same thing about bargnani.
2 - horford is only center because he's on a team that plays midget-ball. he's about the size of boozer, but he can get away with playing C because he's more athletic and has better lenght.
3 - haywood, really?
4 - nobody's going to argue with you on some of those names (howard, bynum) but there's not a single player on that list who doesn't leave something off the table the memo brings. of course, the same could be said the other way around... i'm just saying, "best" is a little broad and a lot of the time that comes down to what's best for a given team or situation... unless you're talking about superstars. for instance, nobody's going to say, "nah, we don't want dwight howard because he doesn't fit our team." they'd take him and MAKE the team fit. but marc gasol is neither better nor worse than memo except to the degree that they help their teams win games. on a team with so few shooting threats to space the floor, marc gasol would be a little redundant and losing memo would cost everybody else some open looks. same with noah. same with bogut.
5 - haywood, really??!!

at the end of the day, memo should be considered a top 8-10 center, but that says more about the extinction of true centers than it does about memo. and let's also not forget that we have no idea what memo is going to look like this fall.

 

[InGameStrategy]

1 - duncan and gasol are PFs. you could say the same thing about bargnani.

Um, Duncan was the tallest player on the Spurs starting team, so no matter whether you call him (or he calls himself) PF or C, TD is a multi-year all-defensive team winner, which is what is needed from at least one big man. Pau Gasol and Marc Gasol were documented as having more minutes in the C role.
https://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL11.HTM#bypos

2 - horford is only center because he's on a team that plays midget-ball. he's about the size of boozer, but he can get away with playing C because he's more athletic and has better lenght.

We'll, that's one of possibly several crucial center skills that Horford has over Okur.

3 - haywood, really?

Really. Like a full RB and BS or two per 30 more than Okur really. (Sometimes I really do not understand the allure for a slow-motion center such as Memo, especially when Utah finally has outside shooting from multiple sources elsewhere.)

4 - nobody's going to argue with you on some of those names (howard, bynum) but there's not a single player on that list who doesn't leave something off the table the memo brings. of course, the same could be said the other way around... i'm just saying, "best" is a little broad and a lot of the time that comes down to what's best for a given team or situation... unless you're talking about superstars.

Okur is probably a better 3-point shooter than most or all of those centers, but it's probably not in the top 3 to 5 characteristics that are important for a center.

 

[InGameStrategy]

You still do not understand the reason why I made connection between Memo Okur and Hansen.
- Did Hansen experience the same injury? YES
- Did he recover properly and claim to feel better? YES
- Did he find his game and start to contribute? YES
- Did he earn the trust of teams even after such kind of injury? YES
You should be blind not to see, read the article of which I gave the link. That's all I'm talking about.
- Did I compare their game styles? NO
- Did I even compare them as players? NO
Is it clear for you, now?

Yes; I am sorry that I didn't catch your point initially. However, all this tells is that it give us promise that Okur will return to health and be able to contribute. However, it does not take away that Okur is a slow, so-so center that isn't enough as a starter to put a dent in the playoffs.

-Haywood gives you 10 points. Hahahh. You know the reality but just to defend your case, you ignore it. Does he have post moves? Is he a reliable option? Does he get the attention of defenses as much as Okur's? His post defense is not better than Okur's. He is on the court just to defend. He, just like 80% of centers, is one dimensional. Face it. I would rather invest my moneyt on FEsenko, who demands much less.

Um, I would say that his post defense is better than Okur's. And if Haywood scores almost as any points as Okur but produces more rebounds and blocks, I would say that Haywood has more of a case to being not one-dimensional than Okur (or Okur apologists) do.

- The reason why you disagree with Memo extension is just your hate and disbelief on him. Not because he did not deserve it. He is a top8 center for me and the Jazz, had expected to lose Boozer in 2009 FA, did not want to lose its center. That's it.

Not really. I think that Okur is a cool guy. If there is anyone I would like to be like on the Jazz, it's probably Okur. He has a hot wife, cute kid(s), and an awesome car (yellow Lotus with a Memo13 license plate). But he is a mediocre center and is not enough to advance significantly in the playoffs. He is also getting old NBAwise, and it was foolish for the Jazz to renew him.

- After seeing the way owners spend their money, Had not been injured, Memo would have easily signed a similar or better contract. Your claim does contradict with what everybody can see.

Even if OKur was healthy, I wouldn't recommend re-signing him because he is a neutral impact on the court on average. The numbers show it, and watching the game shows it. He has won the Jazz some games with his 3-point shooting, but he has lost the Jazz several games with his torero D. I'm not sure why this isn't more clear to apologists such as you.

- Again, YOU believe that Jazz are better with a center like Biedrins, Haywood... I believe I want every one of my players to be able to SHOOT the damn ball.

And I want every one of my players to bea able to defend. And Okur doesn't. If you don't recognize this, you are a blind homer.

For the center position? Tell me who are the real traditional centers, in today's basketball? Most of those so-called defensive powerhouses do not have a polished post move, which REAL CENTERS, WHO YOU WANT, would have.

You are playing into my argument. There has NEVER been a 3-point shooting center who has been part of a championship. By contrast, once Perkins learned how to defend a bit, it was enough for a championship in Boston. Once Miami got a Shaq who could still move more than in slow motion, then they got a title. Once Bynum got good enough for 20-25 MPG, then he could rotate with Gasol and Odom, who aren't awesome defenders (except against Boozer, Okur, and Millsap) but are better than Okur and also bring offense. In other words, more than Okur does.

If the solution is to give 10 million bucks for a player who does not possess scoring thread, cannot score from painted area except assisted dunks or layups, is left on the bench in crunch time, cannot hit a damn FT, your solution SUCKS. What's the difference between Fes and Haywod and many others, other than experience? Basketball is much more than the unproven +/- stats, by the way.

You have conveniently fogoteen the mutliple games that Okur has helped to lose because of defense; a couple of Knicks games especially come to mind. The #1 job of a center (or the tallest big man) is to defend, and Okur doesn't do so sufficiently. The Suns tried to not play interior defense, and it wasn't enough. Unfortunately they decided to play defense after Marion and other key players were gone.

It has appeared that Okur's effort in off-seaseon conditioning has been lukewarm during previous off-seasons, and it should have been apparent to the Jazz that he didn't have enough athleticism to be a legit factor. His 3-point threat and extra few points per game do not make up for the iffy defense he provides inside. Little to no shot altering, definitely not an impressive shot blocking, not outstanding rebounding, not much post presence, and little to no help defense.

 

[Ben10]

ISG I only disagree with you on one part of this. Okur does try and play defense. He puts forth the effort. I watch every game last year and He wasn't letting guys just walk right by him or anything. Is he a slow footed Center without a good vertical. But I disagree with you that there he dosen't put forth the effort. I feel that he has gotten better defensively every year. He blocks some shots and plays very good position D against bigger Centers like Yao and Shaq. The problem is being next to Boozer on Defense. Alot of times Okur is out of position because he is helping out on the rotations and is to slow to get back.

My point is as a strait up one on one defender. Okur isn't that bad (or at least he wasn't before his injury, who knows now). But has a team defender along with another post who also doesn't defend he is very lacking. So if the Jazz felt that Boozer was the one going to be gone and they were going to replace him with a couple of defensive minded PF's like Milsap and maybe someone like Tyrus Thomas then Okur doesn't look that bad as a defender.

The Same can be said for Boozer. With a defensive shot blocker next to him (with size of course) I think anyone would love to have Boozer. The problem is the 2 don't mix.

 

[memo is money]

You keep mentioning that Okur is a top 8 center in the league. I beleive that Okur is not in the top 8. I quickly came up with 12 centers I would rather have and there are probably many more.


1. Howard
2. B. Lopez
3. Kaman
4. Bogut
5. Noah
6. Bargnani
7. Duncan
8. P Gasol
9. M gasol
10 Horford
11 Haywood
12 Bynum

Really?
- Haywood? What difference he did make when Mavs got him via a trade? Come on. He did not make Nowitzki accountable on defense. How could he do along with Boozer? Eeeasssy answer.
- Horford? He is more of a PF than Center. Now, have a look at his size. A lot of fans complain about "size disadvantage" of the team and you would prefer to have Horford? I'm confused. How about the fact that Dwight, Pau, Bynum etc toyed with him. Do we really need to talk about his stupid all-star selection?
- Bargnani? Are you serious. All I recommend you to do is visiting a Raptor Forum. Bargnani is a Center with a mindset and game style of a true SF. Raptor defense plain SUCKS because of Bosh-Bargs combo's being softies. His defense is worse than Carlos'. That says a lot, doesn't it? One can say Okur and Andrea are similar type of players. Ok, then tell me when was the last time Bargnani owned Okur in a Raptors-Jazz game? I do not include the "who has won all games" debate because the Jazz have always been a better than Raptors in recent years.
- Since when has Pau been considered a Center?
- Marc Gasol and Noah played ONE season that can make them be considered among top centers. Let see if they can sustain their performances.

 

[vj_74]

and let's also not forget that we have no idea what memo is going to look like this fall.

Well, chances are high that he is'nt going to look any better

So I expect this top 8 talk to die pretty soon.

Also there are some upcoming young big men like Blatche, Hibbert, Robin Lopez, Demarcus Cousins and so on, who can quickly jump into that list ahead of Okur. If not all of them, atleast 2-3 of them.

And then we'll have 2 yrs and 20 mil worth of reasons to mourn.

 

[friendsinmyhead]

Really?
- Haywood? What difference he did make when Mavs got him via a trade? Come on. He did not make Nowitzki accountable on defense. How could he do along with Boozer? Eeeasssy answer.
- Horford? He is more of a PF than Center. Now, have a look at his size. A lot of fans complain about "size disadvantage" of the team and you would prefer to have Horford? I'm confused. How about the fact that Dwight, Pau, Bynum etc toyed with him. Do we really need to talk about his stupid all-star selection?
- Bargnani? Are you serious. All I recommend you to do is visiting a Raptor Forum. Bargnani is a Center with a mindset and game style of a true SF. Raptor defense plain SUCKS because of Bosh-Bargs combo's being softies. His defense is worse than Carlos'. That says a lot, doesn't it? One can say Okur and Andrea are similar type of players. Ok, then tell me when was the last time Bargnani owned Okur in a Raptors-Jazz game? I do not include the "who has won all games" debate because the Jazz have always been a better than Raptors in recent years.
- Since when has Pau been considered a Center?
- Marc Gasol and Noah played ONE season that can make them be considered among top centers. Let see if they can sustain their performances.

I would love to respond point by point however InGameStrategy did a much better post than I would do already addressing the same points. See post 62 on this thread.