Salary Situation 2015/16 How to pay these guys?

[Hotdog]

McGee got $44mil over 4 years. Jordan got less than that. Both had shown more than Favors after year 3. Favors can be extended this summer. Why is he going to get $3mm+ more per year than these guys?

Because Favors projects to be a much better offensive player than either one of them, even with the small sample size. He is better than both of them right now too. You telling me that some team under the cap who has no stars won't take a chance on signing him to the max? There aren't enough legitimate stars walking around for this not to happen. Some shrewd gm will most definitely take that chance. I think most of them are smart enough to realize that he hasnt gotten a real chance at being a starter anyways. They all can see whats going on here. In fact every basketball mind in the world is wondering wtf we are doing with our roster right now. Only our own FO thinks that no trade, and benching the young talent is the smart thing to do.

 

[GVC]

Because Favors projects to be a much better offensive player than either one of them, even with the small sample size. He is better than both of them right now too. You telling me that some team under the cap who has no stars won't take a chance on signing him to the max? There aren't enough legitimate stars walking around for this not to happen. Some shrewd gm will most definitely take that chance. I think most of them are smart enough to realize that he hasnt gotten a real chance at being a starter anyways. They all can see whats going on here. In fact every basketball mind in the world is wondering wtf we are doing with our roster right now. Only our own FO thinks that no trade, and benching the young talent is the smart thing to do.

1. Does he really project to be a better offensive player than McGee after year 3? Why?

2. The Jazz can extend him this summer before he even hits free agency. I think they'll be able to do so for less than the max. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

1. Does he really project to be a better offensive player than McGee after year 3? Why?

2. The Jazz can extend him this summer before he even hits free agency. I think they'll be able to do so for less than the max. We'll have to wait and see.

We could "extend" him for five years (with the first year of that being being '13'-'14)??? And if so, at what price tag, do you guys think? I'd say 10M per simply because of his size, athleticism, potential and age.

 

[GVC]

We could "extend" him for five years (with the first year of that being being '13'-'14)??? And if so, at what price tag, do you guys think? I'd say 10M per simply because of his size, athleticism, potential and age.

The first year would be 14/15, and the extension can be for a maximum of 4 years (although teams can designate one player to get a 5 year extension). I don't think $10mm per year gets it done.

 

[Hotdog]

1. Does he really project to be a better offensive player than McGee after year 3? Why?

2. The Jazz can extend him this summer before he even hits free agency. I think they'll be able to do so for less than the max. We'll have to wait and see.

We could "extend" him for five years (with the first year of that being being '13'-'14)??? And if so, at what price tag, do you guys think? I'd say 10M per simply because of his size, athleticism, potential and age.

The first year would be 14/15, and the extension can be for a maximum of 4 years (although teams can designate one player to get a 5 year extension). I don't think $10mm per year gets it done.

You guys are high if you don't think Favors gets more than Jordan and Mcgee.


Have you watched Mcgee and Jordan shoot the ball? They are no where near Favors. Favors holes in his game are making mistakes on the court. Which can easily be contributed to not getting enough playing time and practice. The Jazz dont practice much during the season. How is he supposed to learn and find a rhythm from the bench.? He may or may not actually turn into a true max guy, but he most certainly projects to be one and is light years ahead of Mcgee and Jordan in terms of natural offenseive talent. His shot is ten times better than either one of them.


Stars are rare in this league and teams are desperate for one. Someone will offer Favors the max to steal him away from us. Hiding him on the bench won't drive his price down for us. It only hinders us and the rest of the league from knowing what he truly is, and he will still carry that potential tag.

If I am some crappy team with no stars and cap space, I'd throw the max at Favors in a heartbeat just because I know how rare a talent like him is, even knowing the questions marks I have about him. I see what everyone else sees too. He is still rough around the edges, but it sure beats giving 12 mil a year to guys you know aren't going to be great. And there are a lot of those out there.

 

[GVC]

Have you watched Mcgee and Jordan shoot the ball? They are no where near Favors

1. Favors' jump shot is not good. It's certainly not something that makes him $3mm per year better than McGee or Jordan.

2. Again, Favors can be extended this summer before he ever becomes a free agent.

3. I never said he wouldn't get more than those 2 (you've never been particularly literate). Players with his production through 3 years don't get the max though. He'll have to forego an extension, and make huge strides next season to get the max.

 

[GVC]

Al Horford averaged 14 and 10 in his 3rd season as a key player on a 53 win Hawks team, and signed an extension worth $12mm per year.

There are more examples. I can continue to find them.

Can y'all provide an example of a player who got max money for producing like Favors?

 

[GVC]

Andrew Bogut, Josh Smith, Serge Ibaka...

 

[Hotdog]

1. Favors' jump shot is not good. It's certainly not something that makes him $3mm per year better than McGee or Jordan.

2. Again, Favors can be extended this summer before he ever becomes a free agent.

3. I never said he wouldn't get more than those 2 (You've never been particularly literate). Players with his production through 3 years don't get the max though. He'll have to forego an extension, and make huge strides next season to get the max.

Favors is not the same player as Mcgee and Jordan. Its not even close. They are very limited on the offensive end. Favors with all his struggles is 10x better offensively than either of them. If you give Favors 36 a game he will average around 18/10 right now and he is better defensively than either one of them right now while being younger than them. His defense can be considered elite right now. How does that project for the future?

No way in hell Favors agent tells Derrick to accept a low ball offer based off of limited playing time. If this is why the Jazz are keeping him on the bench then they are truly retarded. He won't do it because he will get good advice from his agent.

Tell me this, does the ol mighty Kevin O Connor still trade Dwill if either one Mcgee or Jordan are the center piece. The answer is hell no. He picked Koufus over Jordan for crying out loud.

Go look at out Jordan shoots free throws and get back to me, ok?

 

[GVC]

If you give Favors 36 a game he will average around 18/10 right now

You're delusional. He doesn't average that per 36 minutes now, getting more touches than he should (given how inefficiently he scores the basketball) against second units.

Can you give me an example of a player who got the max after Favors-like production through 3 years?

 

[Hotdog]

You're delusional. He doesn't average that per 36 minutes now, getting more touches than he should (given how inefficiently he scores the basketball) against second units.

Can you give me an example of a player who got the max after Favors-like production through 3 years?

Per 36 doesn't mean squat. So lets just throw that out right now unless you want me to go get a few examples that show that. I can easily prove that to be worthless with many examples.

Secondly, Favors offensive numbers will be skewed as long as Al is on the court hogging the touches and clogging the paint.

Thirdly, the Jazz are the only team that buries that kind of talent on the bench. So examples can't be had. Unless you want to use Harden as an example. Its irrelevant anyways. Every situation is unique, especially this one.


Mcgee and Jordan have been givin their chance. Favors has not. Unless you call 3 games at the beginning of last year his chance. Take Al and Paul off the court, give Favors a decent point guard, focus the offense around him, and you will get the numbers.

 

[GVC]

Take Al and Paul off the court, give Favors a decent point guard, focus the offense around him, and you will get the numbers.

And you'll lose a lot of games.

Favors is not a scorer. He's inefficient in postups and isos, and hasn't even been effective finishing on pick and rolls this season. That anyone could possibly consider him one of the best offensive bigs in the NBA is mystifying.

Do you really think Favors is a better scorer than Millsap, Greg Monroe, Nene, Dwight Howard and Al Horford?

 

[GVC]

Per 36 doesn't mean squat. So lets just throw that out right now unless you want me to go get a few examples that show that. I can easily prove that to be worthless with many examples.

I'd love some examples of bigs who averaged an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes per game in their third year who suddenly became efficient 18 point per game scorers.

While you're at it, you could provide those examples of players who produced similar to Favors and got max deals.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

*chirp, chirp*

 

[zbone]

Hack is delusional

 

[Harcher]

I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...

Also, in the original post I did not take into account, as someone noted, how to pay for the rookies in the next 3 years. These are $1, $2M at least on the books for mid to late 1st rounders. This is another variable that makes it less likely to pay a Core4 for the long term (unless you sandbag them a bit.) But Vslice said the model is to get Core3 and trade out role players through draft/trade planning so as to have a lot more rookie contracts to pay. Did the core three model come first, or did Tim Duncan's salary demand it... Did tim every get the 17+M?

One of the variables in this is Millsap's attitude toward starting. If he is demanding that role, then he should not be resigned. If he's willing to take what GVC outlined in another thread which is the pay up front model, then this significantly helps the C4 problem. I think Sap is a very good fit (not being identical) to the Favors/Kanter combo.

Also consideration to a Core4 model is the idea that it creates less chance to go to all-star game and be a 'franchise player.' Not enough ball to go around for that many players; stats are diluted. If you add Sap, MoWill in to that mix it ends up being C5-6 - even less likely to get all-star stats. The hope is that the players in the C4-6 we have now would be interested in this model... the only hope actually. Lebron is not walking through the ESA (home team) door... So maybe Ty is not a Turd at all. Maybe the Jazz are working a smart plan.

 

[illyasova]

I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...

You must be Polyanna

 

[Hotdog]

I'd love some examples of bigs who averaged an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes per game in their third year who suddenly became efficient 18 point per game scorers.

While you're at it, you could provide those examples of players who produced similar to Favors and got max deals.

You seriously dont know what you are talking about. Favors situation is completely different than any other situation. He is buried on the bench behind vets all in the name of an organization's philosophy that they don't make trades and dont play young guys.

If you want examples then look no further than the two guys you keep using as examples. They didn't get max deals, but they got a lot of money for not producing great numbers and not playing big minutes. Mcgee and Jordan only average 20 min a game for their careers. What had they even proven when they got their money? Favors could average more points than either of them right now.

You simply just dont have the skill to recognize the differences in talent. You can talk about per 36 and other junk stats all you want but it dont mean squat. There are just too many factors involved in this case for that stuff to matter.

And you never answered my question of whether or not KOC still makes that trade with Mcgee or Jordan as the center piece. You have been dancing all around that this whole time..


Favors will get more money than Mcgee or Jordan. I guarantee it. You dont know what you are talking about.

 

[Hotdog]

I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...

Also, in the original post I did not take into account, as someone noted, how to pay for the rookies in the next 3 years. These are $1, $2M at least on the books for mid to late 1st rounders. This is another variable that makes it less likely to pay a Core4 for the long term (unless you sandbag them a bit.) But Vslice said the model is to get Core3 and trade out role players through draft/trade planning so as to have a lot more rookie contracts to pay. Did the core three model come first, or did Tim Duncan's salary demand it... Did tim every get the 17+M?

One of the variables in this is Millsap's attitude toward starting. If he is demanding that role, then he should not be resigned. If he's willing to take what GVC outlined in another thread which is the pay up front model, then this significantly helps the C4 problem. I think Sap is a very good fit (not being identical) to the Favors/Kanter combo.

Also consideration to a Core4 model is the idea that it creates less chance to go to all-star game and be a 'franchise player.' Not enough ball to go around for that many players; stats are diluted. If you add Sap, MoWill in to that mix it ends up being C5-6 - even less likely to get all-star stats. The hope is that the players in the C4-6 we have now would be interested in this model... the only hope actually. Lebron is not walking through the ESA (home team) door... So maybe Ty is not a Turd at all. Maybe the Jazz are working a smart plan.

This is completely idiotic. You, GVC and zbone need to lay off the bud.

Your not going to keep the salaries under control of Favors and Kanter by keeping them on the bench. If you were to succeed then it will turn into a disaster. Wtf? You think Kanter and Favors are going to appreciate that B.S. ?

It isn't going to happen anyways. The league isn't built that way. There is a lot of guaranteed money out there to be had and it will go to the top talent in the league. A lot of guys will be overpaid. You don't have to be a true max player to get max money. Gm's around the league will be eyeing Kanter and Favors for big money if we don't pay. This is 100% guaranteed. There is no maybe here. Its going to happen. Talented bigs aren't just floating all around the league. Deandre Jordan can't shoot free throws, can't hit a shot, not a good rebounder, and doesn't have to play starter minutes to make 10 mil a year. Mcgee doesn't even have to play good or give a rats *** about what he is doing out there to make 10 mil a year.

I can't believe I am even arguing with you clowns.

 

[GVC]

I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables.

I'd say that's about right. Matches with the players I've listed, all of whom showed more than Favors through 3 seasons.

Hack, you certainly are skilled at writing a lot of words and saying absolutely nothing. Bravo. Instead of ranting angrily, you could maybe try to support your wild assertions. Favors being a better free throw shooter than two players who are widely believed to be overpaid doesn't make him a max player. Again, can you provide a single example of a comparable player who either made the jump from an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes to an efficient 18 points per game or got the max? Throwing a fit, screaming "I'M SMART! YOU'RE STUPID!" isn't all that convincing.

And no, I don't think the Jazz would trade Favors for Jordan or McGee. That doesn't make Favors a max player.