Science vs. Creationism

[One Brow]

Is DNA more or less ordered than the general disorder of the universe?

About the same. DNA has so much material that codes for nothing, material that codes for two different things, duplicate material, etc. It's mostly noise.

 

[One Brow]

Just pointing out that without outside influence a natural system tends toward disorder, not toward order, yet DNA and evolution certainly seem more ordered than generally expected. So what is the outside influence?

Selection is an outside influence on DNA.

 

[colton]

Just pointing out that without outside influence a natural system tends toward disorder, not toward order, yet DNA and evolution certainly seem more ordered than generally expected. So what is the outside influence?

If you read the link that Scat provided, https://medium.com/p/8712e42fbb0d, he addresses that question.

 

[LogGrad98]

Just pointing out that without outside influence a natural system tends toward disorder, not toward order, yet DNA and evolution certainly seem more ordered than generally expected. So what is the outside influence?[/QUOTE]

Natural selection!!!!!!

By definition that would be part of the system, not an outside influence.

 

[LogGrad98]

So in the part that scat posted and colton alluded to is this piece:

The question is: is the Earth’s surface, oceans and atmosphere an isolated system? Given that we receive energy both externally from the Sun, internally from the Earth’s core, and also a little bit cosmically from sources beyond our Solar System, the answer is no. In addition, we also radiate energy away, back out into the Universe. By all accounts, the Earth is not an isolated system. If it were — if we prevented it from absorbing or emitting any radiation or information with the outside Universe — only then could we apply the second law of thermodynamics to it.

So how big is the system that we can call "isolated", nothing less than the universe itself? Is our galaxy or local cluster an isolated system?

But it does get into another interesting part of the discussion. If the entire universe is the only naturally occurring isolated system we can identify, then what outside influence has caused the change in entropy?

 

[TroutBum]

Been trying to convince my wife to do this for awhile now.... Maybe I'll just take my kids this spring break why she is working!!!

Go without her, man. I've been out there maybe a dozen times over the years and I love it. Unfortunately, the last few kind of sucked because someone bought the land where "the good ones" always were and is using it to commercially farm the fossils. I'd suggest some up to date research and phone calls before you drive out there and possibly get skunked.

Evolution doesn't kill you Deity it shows his hand!!!

This is exactly how I feel, and is one of the main reasons I find it easy to have faith in my religion. Did an all-powerful God just snap his fingers and POW, Human Beings? Or would he use science? When I go outside to create my amazing garden in the spring I don't just snap my fingers and POW, delicious fruits and vegetables! I have to plant the seeds and nurture it over time. Science > Magic

By DNA, are you referring to DNA as its biochemical structure? Or rather, the science of genomics?

Because if we pooled every super-computer and ran it until the end of time, we still would not be able to completely and precisely sequence the entire genome of a single human-being, due to the hyper-randomness, unexpected-repetitivity, and ambiguity of genomics & epigenomics.


Most human genetic sequencing has been exon-centered (which constitute around ~1-2% of our DNA) while the rest of DNA is scrapped as "junk DNA", due to a combination of us either not devising ways to get them to be transcribed in the lab, or the fact that DNA does not need to be transcribed into an mRNA or protein molecule in order to be biochemically active. We can only sequence DNA (via shotgun-sequencing) via 500 base-pair reads at a time, despite the fact that some DNA strands can be tandem-repeats over tens-of-thousands of base pairs. I'm sure you could comprehend the mathematical nightmare that this would entail, as the computers would need to handle n^x calculations just to entertain every possibility of every read used to sequence the single genome.

Consequently, we tend to identify only 2% of the DNA, and only the ones that are short, and non-repetitive enough (while undertaking massive mathematical assumptions) due to the complexity of an organism's genome.


The paper mentioned in this article appraised 80% of human DNA as biochemically active, and it was published in Nature: https://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/junk_no_more_en_1064001.html.




So to answer your question: perhaps it is ordered quite definitely, however we are no-where near understand Genomics completely, much like we are no where near using mathematics to properly-modelling the disorder of the universe.

Seriously? You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[The Midnight]

This is exactly how I feel, and is one of the main reasons I find it easy to have faith in my religion. Did an all-powerful God just snap his fingers and POW, Human Beings? Or would he use science? When I go outside to create my amazing garden in the spring I don't just snap my fingers and POW, delicious fruits and vegetables! I have to plant the seeds and nurture it over time. Science > Magic

Wouldn't mind seeing this amazing garden.


Jazzfanz agrees.

 

[TroutBum]

Wouldn't mind seeing this amazing garden.


Jazzfanz agrees.

I told you earlier, I am a fanatical gardener. I just moved 300 miles south though, and I'm starting to realize that all of the seeds I brought from up north just won't survive this zone. Kind of bummed, tbh; I really hate the cactus/succulent type of flora they have down here. Hardly ANY color to be found. I'm going to give it a good go though. In fact, today I started planting trays. I got two colors of Zinnia's, some snap dragons, 4 o'clock's, petunia's, marigold's, and cosmos. These are all just sample runs though, because I'm not sure of the climate down here; it's warm and sunny one day and freezing cold the next. I'm going to stagger my trays every two weeks just to be safe. I've got thousands of seeds, so I'm not worried about die off.

As for veggies? Looks like I'm going to have to take this year off. There are billions of rabbits around our place, not to mention, the soil here sucks ***. I don't feel like building a box this year, or fighting with the bunnies.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Seriously? You took the words right out of my mouth.

Lolol. That got way too wordy-- but it's actually pretty simple if I had the time to properly explain.

 

[TroutBum]

Lolol. That got way too wordy-- but it's actually pretty simple if I had the time to properly explain.

I know, I know. "Jesus the Christ" also reads like a "Cat in the Hat" book, and "War and Peace" is actually a pretty quick/easy read.

Of course, any of you tards with sub 140 IQ's probably don't comprehend what us brains are talking about.

 

[One Brow]

By definition that would be part of the system, not an outside influence.

If you define "system" that broadly, then you have to include the sun, as well. Systems tend to overall disorder, but that can include locally ordered pockets within it.

 

[One Brow]

So how big is the system that we can call "isolated", nothing less than the universe itself? Is our galaxy or local cluster an isolated system?

But it does get into another interesting part of the discussion. If the entire universe is the only naturally occurring isolated system we can identify, then what outside influence has caused the change in entropy?

Systems where there is no, or a negligible, exchange of energy are isolated.

Entropy rises naturally, with not need for an outside influence to cause it.