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Serious quesiton for people who deny human involvement in climate change/global warming

I'm not going to respond to "science doesn't know everything" and "you can't prove there is no God" portions because they are too philosophically elementary, and have been responded to a million times over.

I will point out the contradiction in your thinking though. You make two conflicting points. First, science does not rule out a creator because our understanding has limits. This is a materialist stance. You are saying that given a sufficient level of understanding, a hypothesis about the nature of God can be advanced. God is thus an ontologically natural phenomenon that can be understood. Later, you make the claim that God's existence does not fall into the bounds of scientific inquiry and must be left to religious belief. That's an immaterialist argument for God.

These are mutually exclusive arguments. I can easily respond to either point, but not both at the same time. Make up your mind.

And I will point our the unrealistic simplicity of your dichotomy.

In asserting that there is stuff we cannot access with our senses or scientific tools, I don't necessarily assert that it is immaterial, just inaccessible. Read up on Quantum Physics. We are still trying to design and build better tools for detecting material particles which our mathematics demands must exist.

Mormons have long harbored notions of "spirit" being a kind of matter that we cannot see or detect with our common tools of discovery, and in times long past have theorized that all living things have unique spirit forms, and that even inanimate stuff has a spirit form as well. However, the specific "God" Mormons believe in is distinctly and unequivocally material. The only thing we lack is a science with a power of subpoena which could command God to appear and submit to examination.
 
And I will point our the unrealistic simplicity of your dichotomy.

In asserting that there is stuff we cannot access with our senses or scientific tools, I don't necessarily assert that it is immaterial, just inaccessible. Read up on Quantum Physics. We are still trying to design and build better tools for detecting material particles which our mathematics demands must exist.

Mormons have long harbored notions of "spirit" being a kind of matter that we cannot see or detect with our common tools of discovery, and in times long past have theorized that all living things have unique spirit forms, and that even inanimate stuff has a spirit form as well. However, the specific "God" Mormons believe in is distinctly and unequivocally material. The only thing we lack is a science with a power of subpoena which could command God to appear and submit to examination.

Telling me to read up on quantum physics is like me telling you to "check out the Book of Mormon, you might like it".

But yeah, I'm not interested in debating religious beliefs. I'm just wondering why you keep ranting about materialists every time a scientific topic you don't like comes up, when you don't seem to offer a defense of your spiritualism. That impulse seems ridiculous to me.
 
Telling me to read up on quantum physics is like me telling you to "check out the Book of Mormon, you might like it".

But yeah, I'm not interested in debating religious beliefs. I'm just wondering why you keep ranting about materialists every time a scientific topic you don't like comes up, when you don't seem to offer a defense of your spiritualism. That impulse seems ridiculous to me.

No, you still don't get it. The most likely origin of the Book of Mormon is NOT spiritualism, but materialism. Gold, in fact. The ism you are likely referring to consists of irrational idealisms like European feudalists calling themselves phony names like communists, socialists of any brand, masquerading as the leading proponents of human progress while leading us back into medieval servitude. you know, folks like billionaire Al Gore who want us to believe we need a new currency called carbon credits owned by former coal magnates.
 
I define "power" simply as the ability to do something that you couldn't do, or do as well, otherwise. Thus, knowledge empowers, as it is confers a potential ability advantage over ignorance.

I agree with the rest of your post, except the last part about the brain. It is the organ that does all of the information processing, regardless of whether the output is made available on the conscious level or not.

So, finally, going over the page this post is on. . . . above you state that information exists independent of observers, and here it seems necessary to discuss the information processor we use. hmmm. . . . hearing echos of charges about "subjective experience". This is pretty wacky stuff.

The universe must be inclusively defined to include human brains and human purposes I suppose, but when we discuss science we usually are talking about stuff that exists independently of our opinions, as the objective observable material we can subject to some measure or test in demonstrating a reproducible phenomena or principle. I'd use the term "information" to be some ordered view or interpretation of reality, or maybe an array of ordered physical computer memory bits. But I've heard, and acknowledge, proponents of another definition of "information" as any ordered relation of things past or present, as memory.

I don't, however, care to characterize politically expedient campaigns for developing support for government action the same kind of "science" that has generally advanced human progress. Where are the independent researchers who work independently of government funding? The present network of financial supporters of research on AGW or climate change, like the researchers in pharmacology and military applications, seem to me to exist to conflate science with psy-op protagonists . . . at least potentially. Maybe to be nice, I should just call them our world managers, or decision-makers, but some call them "interests" or more specifically "motivated interests" working the levers of our political machines for their own benefit. I wonder, at all your skepticism about human belief systems, why you don't exercise the same skepticism with science so compromised.

For me, the data presently being promoted supports an increase in worldwide temps of around 2 degrees F, or 1 C, in a hundred plus years of fossil fuel consumption. It is projected to accelerate if we don't do something to change our use. But I've not found the science sufficiently rigorous in terms of the equations and calculations involved in the projected impacts, lots of assumptions and big fudge factors, lots of thumbs on the scales so to speak. And the net claimed change, per our data, is within known variances observed in climate across geological time accessible to some method of correlation of various measures believed to be linked to temperatures in time past. That set of facts does not validate aggressive government mandates for changed economics/taxes/regulations.

But I don't think we should just burn all our carbon fuels, really. I get interested in folks with some new technology under research, like say hydrogen fuel cells linked to solar electric production which can store energy in the form of compressed hydrogen gas that can be burned efficiently and safely in automobiles, eliminating the need to carry batteries half the weight of electric vehicles. Lots of stuff like that, it seems, could render all the alarm about AGW moot. Why don't we put the research funds into something with realistic benefits to mankind?
 
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I think this sentiment is unfair(not to the party but to the people that get assistance).

Most of the people on assistance are either disabled, elderly, or working poor. They aren't lazy they are just not as good at playing the capitalist game, never had access to capital, or had a stroke of bad luck. Wealth seems to be an excuse for laziness we just call it leisure when wealthy people do it. How is spending a week on a beach in Cancun not lazy? This is a level of leisure/laziness the working poor will likely never enjoy.

In my experience wealth and poverty are not good indicators of work ethic.
 
I know it does. Usually the term spiritual is applied to those that believe in something more but are not part of a religion.

Either way it's not something I thought I'd hear Roach called. Just made me laugh is all.

I would include myself in the spiritual category, no need for 3rd parties in the middle of my relationship with God, Allah, Source, call it what you will I think it's all the same thing.

Not to be confused with the New Age garbage.
 
I think this sentiment is unfair(not to the party but to the people that get assistance).

Most of the people on assistance are either disabled, elderly, or working poor. They aren't lazy they are just not as good at playing the capitalist game, never had access to capital, or had a stroke of bad luck. Wealth seems to be an excuse for laziness we just call it leisure when wealthy people do it. How is spending a week on a beach in Cancun not lazy? This is a level of leisure/laziness the working poor will likely never enjoy.

In my experience wealth and poverty are not good indicators of work ethic.

Political jokes are usually unfair for one reason or another.
 
I would include myself in the spiritual category, no need for 3rd parties in the middle of my relationship with God, Allah, Source, call it what you will I think it's all the same thing.

Not to be confused with the New Age garbage.

What's the difference?
 
I think this sentiment is unfair(not to the party but to the people that get assistance).

Most of the people on assistance are either disabled, elderly, or working poor. They aren't lazy they are just not as good at playing the capitalist game, never had access to capital, or had a stroke of bad luck. Wealth seems to be an excuse for laziness we just call it leisure when wealthy people do it. How is spending a week on a beach in Cancun not lazy? This is a level of leisure/laziness the working poor will likely never enjoy.

In my experience wealth and poverty are not good indicators of work ethic.

I don't disagree with your view of the poor, but the example of leisure is strange and inapplicable. The comic is about entitlement, not the virtue of being 100% efficient 24/7. Everyone needs a bit of leisure, regardless of how good a work ethic they have. It is a basic human need.
 
What's the difference?

Well, I should have added that I see it as an individual relationship with such being. Being part of a collective would imply following a series of guidelines with which I may not be in accordance with all of them.
 
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