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Should Hayward be benched?

franklin said:
He's screwing up the offense and defense at the same time. .
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He is 3rd in asts, 2nd in ast/to ratio, 3rd in blocks, and 3rd highest in win shares on the team, and he does all this while using the 8th most possessions of the 13 guys on the team. (uses the same amount of possessions as Kanter). Considering he's starting, and getting 26mins, he seems to be using his time to help the team win. Not what you are trying to make it seem.

He is in his 2nd year. Is still a baby. Is obviously a smart kid, and obviously has things to work on, but if you can't tell that he is helping us win, you either aren't watching the games, aren't watching the advanced stats, or both.

I agree with moving him to the two, and moving Howard to the 3, at some point. Howard has statistically been a great contributor this season.
 
PKM said:
Silly me. I didn't know .. will have to look into expanding my one post per page show.
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That would be advisable.
And just so you know, you can also click on the page number of a thread to go straight there.
You don't have to start at page one, and go next every time.

You are welcome.
 
JazzSpazz said:
I was going to contribute something stoopid to this thread, but it didn't need it.
Are we done here?
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"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."


That's actually close to offensive Spazz. If you don't want to add any substance you can take your heckling elsewhere.
 
jope said:
He is 3rd in asts, 2nd in ast/to ratio, 3rd in blocks, and 3rd highest in win shares on the team, and he does all this while using the 8th most possessions of the 13 guys on the team. (uses the same amount of possessions as Kanter). Considering he's starting, and getting 26mins, he seems to be using his time to help the team win. Not what you are trying to make it seem.

He is in his 2nd year. Is still a baby. Is obviously a smart kid, and obviously has things to work on, but if you can't tell that he is helping us win, you either aren't watching the games, aren't watching the advanced stats, or both.

I agree with moving him to the two, and moving Howard to the 3, at some point. Howard has statistically been a great contributor this season.
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Aren't stats convenient when you want them to be. According to 82games.com, Jazz lose when Hayward is on the court. Isn't it nice when people source there data?


Unless something has drastically changed, Josh Howard is on all top five Jazz player combos according to NBA.com. Not Hayward, Howard.
 
82games.com is not great at updating their data. They have him having played 8 games. has him listed as playing some power forward.https://www.82games.com/1112/11UTA8.HTM


According to NBA.com, 4 of the top 5 5 man lineups feature Hayward. https://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22011&split=9&team=Jazz

+ - is a terrible reference. All it means is that our starters are being outplayed, and our bench out plays their bench, for a moment corresponding to when a player is playing. If Hayward is on the floor for 4 mins, Andrew Bynum goes on a tear for 8 points without the jazz scoring, then Hayward is subbed out, he is now -8. Not a good reflection of his individual game. (if you went by + - tinselly should be starting)

Winshares is a better representation of the player contributing to a win, IMO.

All I'm saying is that:
He's not as bad as you think
He has slot of oom to improve, and has the time and situation to do so.




My sources: basketball-reference.com, NBA.com
 
Stop confusing franklin with facts and logic. He was on a role.
 
franklin said:
After being traded Baron Davis style? What a disappointing player he has been. What does he do well besides release early while the other 4 are securing rebounds?

Package him with AJ for Rashard Lewis and Nick Young.
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Haha and you make fun of my threads?
 
Beantown said:
Haha and you make fun of my threads?
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swing-and-miss.jpg
 
jope said:
82games.com is not great at updating their data. They have him having played 8 games. has him listed as playing some power forward.https://www.82games.com/1112/11UTA8.HTM
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Uhh huh. You're skewing things just a little bit. The top 13 teams on that link all have two of either AJ, MIllsap, and/or Favors in with him. What do they show? A full two minutes at power forward?


jope said:
According to NBA.com, 4 of the top 5 5 man lineups feature Hayward. https://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22011&split=9&team=Jazz
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For a total of 33 minutes. That number is so low it's practically meaningless. The team tied for 2nd has Alec Burks and Chucker Jr, so... Like I said, stats are convenient.



jope said:
He's not as bad as you think did he is.
He has slot of oom to improve, and has the time and situation to do so.
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Exactly how bad do I think he is? I never said he sucks. I said I've had enough watching him run the offense in siezure mode. The Jazz cannot defend when he does his stupid drive and dish. The first thing he does is screw up the position the bigs have established or they're going to be called for 3 second violations. He passes out to covered wings behind the arc and they have to either throw up a rushed shot or completely reset the offense. Either option has been disasterous and it's all on Gordon Hayward.

Drive and throw to whoever happens to get open after you've left your feet is not a designed NBA play. Why does he keep doing it?
 
franklin said:
Exactly how bad do I think he is? I never said he sucks. I said I've had enough watching him run the offense in siezure mode. The Jazz cannot defend when he does his stupid drive and dish. The first thing he does is screw up the position the bigs have established or they're going to be called for 3 second violations. He passes out to covered wings behind the arc and they have to either throw up a rushed shot or completely reset the offense. Either option has been disasterous and it's all on Gordon Hayward.

Drive and throw to whoever happens to get open after you've left your feet is not a designed NBA play. Why does he keep doing it?
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FWIW, I agree that he needs to stop that drive and jump move he has done.
He needs to do a Nash, and keep his dribble.
 
franklin said:
Uhh huh. You're skewing things just a little bit. The top 13 teams on that link all have two of either AJ, MIllsap, and/or Favors in with him. What do they show? A full two minutes at power forward?




For a total of 33 minutes. That number is so low it's practically meaningless. The team tied for 2nd has Alec Burks and Chucker Jr, so... Like I said, stats are convenient.





Exactly how bad do I think he is? I never said he sucks. I said I've had enough watching him run the offense in siezure mode. The Jazz cannot defend when he does his stupid drive and dish. The first thing he does is screw up the position the bigs have established or they're going to be called for 3 second violations. He passes out to covered wings behind the arc and they have to either throw up a rushed shot or completely reset the offense. Either option has been disasterous and it's all on Gordon Hayward.

Drive and throw to whoever happens to get open after you've left your feet is not a designed NBA play. Why does he keep doing it?
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He averages 1.5 turnovers per game, and has a very respectable 2.4 A/T ratio. Whatever damage you think he is doing on his drives is just another Franklin fantasy. We would rather not hear about the other ones.
 
franklin said:
Uhh huh. You're skewing things just a little bit. The top 13 teams on that link all have two of either AJ, MIllsap, and/or Favors in with him. What do they show? A full two minutes at power forward?






For a total of 33 minutes. That number is so low it's practically meaningless. The team tied for 2nd has Alec Burks and Chucker Jr, so... Like I said, stats are convenient.





Exactly how bad do I think he is? I never said he sucks. I said I've had enough watching him run the offense in siezure mode. The Jazz cannot defend when he does his stupid drive and dish. The first thing he does is screw up the position the bigs have established or they're going to be called for 3 second violations. He passes out to covered wings behind the arc and they have to either throw up a rushed shot or completely reset the offense. Either option has been disasterous and it's all on Gordon Hayward.

Drive and throw to whoever happens to get open after you've left your feet is not a designed NBA play. Why does he keep doing it?
Click to expand...


I'm just answering what you claimed. And those are the top five lineups, regardless of minutes. If you want to subject them to minutes played, you should state that before referencing the top 5 lineups listed on NBA.com. What the low minutes could show is that those lineups could benefit the team by playing more, or they could be inflated by limited data and they would suck hard if played more. I don't know.

I do know that Gordon has had a positive effect on this team. He has a good attitude, and is a willing contributor to the team effort. His intention is to make his team play better, not looking to bolster his personal stats. And I agree that he is a bit spastic on his drives, but without him trying to be willing to involve his teammates, he might have never broke the starting lineup. We have plenty of chuckers on this team. Being A willing contributor is what is keeping him in the starting lineup.

And we seem to be winning with him in the starting lineup just fine (7 of last 8). So I guess I'm just not seeing the big issue with him.
 
Gordo was the only Jazz player tonight who didn't put up a +.

0-4 with 0 assists and 1 TO. He did have 3 rebs though, so Cyrone can breath easy.
 
Hayward got 4 FT's in the first quarter so I assumed he was actually going to play good. Nope.

Still laughing at the crowd sighing "THREEEEEahhhhhh" when Gordon passed up an open 3, only to have Gordon get the ball back and jack up a three due to crowd pressure.
 
Cyrone Torbin said:
Hayward got 4 FT's in the first quarter so I assumed he was actually going to play good. Nope.

Still laughing at the crowd sighing "THREEEEEahhhhhh" when Gordon passed up an open 3, only to have Gordon get the ball back and jack up a three due to crowd pressure.
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Yeah his total lack of aggression is getting more than old. He needs to step it up or be benched. Pretty ****ty when you get outplayed by CJ.
 
jope said:
I do know that Gordon has had a positive effect on this team. He has a good attitude, and is a willing contributor to the team effort. His intention is to make his team play better, not looking to bolster his personal stats. And I agree that he is a bit spastic on his drives, but without him trying to be willing to involve his teammates, he might have never broke the starting lineup. We have plenty of chuckers on this team. Being A willing contributor is what is keeping him in the starting lineup.

And we seem to be winning with him in the starting lineup just fine (7 of last 8). So I guess I'm just not seeing the big issue with him.
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FWIW, thanks for making a solid argument in his defense.
 
Why should the guy be benched?
Hell, he brings the same intangibles to the game that Kirilenko brought at this point.
I think he'll be better than AK offensively, and he might even match AK's (in his prime of course) defensive prowess.
 
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