I don't know if I agree with you or not.
Should the South secede?
- Thread starter Siro
- Start date
I don't know if I agree with you or not.
Wrong, 100%. While my contempoaries were taking some bailout, I didn't like the baggage that came with it. We declined. Suck it.
Are you saying you did not have assets or debt tied up in equities, real estate, mortgages, derivatives, art, businesses, bank accounts, loans, retirement accounts, mutual funds, hedge funds, insurance accounts, or personal possessions?
It was not just the people that took money who got bailed out, pretty much everyone did, except for people all in cash or government insured CDs or Treasuries. Even those people might have been hurt, hard to say how it all would have unwound.
It was not just the people that took money who got bailed out, pretty much everyone did, except for people all in cash or government insured CDs or Treasuries. Even those people might have been hurt, hard to say how it all would have unwound.
None that I didn't completely control and manage. I held no stocks of public companies, I held mortgage-type monies but only through my entities. Of course I had some cash in bank accounts, duh, but that's really reaching..
Bottom line is that I invest my monies back into entities that I control/manage and none benefited by bailout. Many/most did, but I did not.
well, I don't want to pry too far into your life,
but from your previous posts, I would guess that your entities would likely have been wiped out along with your personal possessions if the sheet really hit the fan, which it would have if the government didn't take some huge interventionist measures in 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012, as imperfect as those measures were.
but from your previous posts, I would guess that your entities would likely have been wiped out along with your personal possessions if the sheet really hit the fan, which it would have if the government didn't take some huge interventionist measures in 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012, as imperfect as those measures were.
It's a debatable topic with no way to prove out, so we'll just leave it at that. I do believe that some people find a way to perservere in any situation .. that's one of the things I love about this country.
Some people do, and some people don't.
The people with the most success often talk about how they did it all on their own initiative, but they were the ones who got the most help.
Assets related to real estate, art, private equity and many small businesses would have been hurt real bad without government stabilizing things.
The people with the most success often talk about how they did it all on their own initiative, but they were the ones who got the most help.
Assets related to real estate, art, private equity and many small businesses would have been hurt real bad without government stabilizing things.
Are you somehow attempting to claim that government intervention is what made rich people successful?
I would submit that those executives of big corporations that didn't do it on their own, but were hired to the position, may fit that description .. especially if they took bail-out only to bonus themselves.
Posts 27 and 29 are discussing what would have happened to assets if the government did not intervene in financial markets in 2008 and since. Everyone was effected, not just those who directly took bailout money. It seems to me that the people who most resent the role of government in recent years are actually among the ones who benefited most, generally speaking.
Isn't all of this kind of beside the point? Obviously businesses can thrive anywhere, with or without anyone's help. I can't think of a single civilization that did not have wealthy merchants with considerable influence and power. I don't think anyone is saying "you can't do well on your own". But, look at a country like Mexico, or Sri Lanka, or Ghana, or any other poor nation. Most of those countries have significant natural resources. All of them have a lot of successful businesses and plenty of rich people. And yet, the people of those countries are seriously struggling. The difference is the government.
In Western cultures, citizens teamed up and created a model of a government that is intended to assist them. No longer was government simply about finding ways to consolidate power and control the population. Instead, government was a way to ensure society's interest are upheld regardless of the wants of the few.
The pretension that the United States was built for the free market is absurd. We're not the slaves of capitalism! The market is OUR tool! It's supposed to be the best way to ensure a prosperous and free society. Not an idol that could not be touched or questioned.
The fact is, government is what keeps your business going. Not YOURS specifically. None of this is about you or any other person. It is government that maintains an environment suitable for modern business. It is what keeps your competition from assassinating you, and what keeps you from having an army of mercenaries to protect your family. It is what maintains an ubiquitous infrastructure that makes it so easy for everyone to access your business. It is what supports a world that demands universal education to stay ahead. It is many other things. If you don't believe me, go ahead and start a business in Ghana, and preach to them about your work ethics.
I want to emphasize that this isn't about you specifically, PKM. It's intended for all the conservatives who have made "government is evil" their religion. How can a reasonable person dispute the fact that our lives are much better in a working system of laws and regulations! Or does none of that matter? Is it really just about you? Are we to dispose of 400 years of Enlightenment culture just so that you can make an extra buck? Has it really come to that?
The government is us, man. They are the people we elected to represent our interests. It is unfortunate that those with wealth succeeded in buying our elected representatives out. It is also unfortunate that we decided those who were powerful enough to control the strongest country on earth are the ones most in need of protection.
I'm sorry for the rant. I smoked too much (weed) and now I'm really depressed that this Ayn Rand "me against everyone else" nonsense has become an accepted mainstream ideology.
I agree that a government is very important. Without it you have chaos and wild extremes of rich and poor. I am against too many government-run programs simply because I have too much experience in seeing the private business person doing things far more efficiently. So what if someone gets rich in the process of saving all Americans money? I actually don't have much beef about much at all and, contrary to popular belief, I am far from an extremist. I do, however, hate waste .. in whatever form.
According to Romney, businesses are not successful in isolation, it requires a society and government involvement to provide an environment conducive to support business success.
I imagine that 2 or 3 thousand years ago, there were some traders that operated independently of governments with some success before they were murdered by roving pirates or whatever, but in modern society economies are totally reliant on the government to provide all sorts of necessary ingredients for wealth creation, independent basket weavers notwithstanding.
I completely agree. And those same governments depend on 'us' to be able to operate, for 'us.'
Okay, you're right. Bigger government, please. Government is a lean, mean, efficiency machine .. with far less waste than in the private sector. Feel better? I do, because I can, once again, stop discussing something so simple, yet seemingly so hard to grasp.
That's all good. But things were fine before laws like the Glass-Steagall Act were repealed, giving the money movers, who simply play a facilitator's role in the economy, disastrously undue power. And before we started cutting the taxes of the richest without any clear returns, and while we drowned more and more in debt. Hell, the economy was doing incredibly well in the 50s and 60s despite a MUCH higher tax rate.
If something is wasteful and does not offer clear benefit, then cut it. No problem. If private citizens can offer a better service, then by all means, privatize. But keep in mind we're SUPPOSED to pay for those programs. They're not intended to make profits. It's a sacrifice that we pay to ensure the continuation of our cultural heritage. The fact that it's not voluntary is important! That is the social contract. And it is more important than that 0.8% extra quarterly growth the shareholders are expecting. As a society, we should employ a broader risk-benefit analysis than that of corporations. Our interests don't always overlap.
Isn't all of this kind of beside the point? Obviously businesses can thrive anywhere, with or without anyone's help. I can't think of a single civilization that did not have wealthy merchants with considerable influence and power. I don't think anyone is saying "you can't do well on your own". But, look at a country like Mexico, or Sri Lanka, or Ghana, or any other poor nation. Most of those countries have significant natural resources. All of them have a lot of successful businesses and plenty of rich people. And yet, the people of those countries are seriously struggling. The difference is the government.
In Western cultures, citizens teamed up and created a model of a government that is intended to assist them. No longer was government simply about finding ways to consolidate power and control the population. Instead, government was a way to ensure society's interest are upheld regardless of the wants of the few.
The pretension that the United States was built for the free market is absurd. We're not the slaves of capitalism! The market is OUR tool! It's supposed to be the best way to ensure a prosperous and free society. Not an idol that could not be touched or questioned.
The fact is, government is what keeps your business going. Not YOURS specifically. None of this is about you or any other person. It is government that maintains an environment suitable for modern business. It is what keeps your competition from assassinating you, and what keeps you from having an army of mercenaries to protect your family. It is what maintains an ubiquitous infrastructure that makes it so easy for everyone to access your business. It is what supports a world that demands universal education to stay ahead. It is many other things. If you don't believe me, go ahead and start a business in Ghana, and preach to them about your work ethics.
I want to emphasize that this isn't about you specifically, PKM. It's intended for all the conservatives who have made "government is evil" their religion. How can a reasonable person dispute the fact that our lives are much better in a working system of laws and regulations! Or does none of that matter? Is it really just about you? Are we to dispose of 400 years of Enlightenment culture just so that you can make an extra buck? Has it really come to that?
The government is us, man. They are the people we elected to represent our interests. It is unfortunate that those with wealth succeeded in buying our elected representatives out. It is also unfortunate that we decided those who were powerful enough to control the strongest country on earth are the ones most in need of protection.
I'm sorry for the rant. I smoked too much (weed) and now I'm really depressed that this Ayn Rand "me against everyone else" nonsense has become an accepted mainstream ideology.
That was a very good rant. Thanks for helping out. I might copy and paste some of it somewhere, it was so good.
Not really. Sure we don't have a time machine to try out different approaches, but the need for monetary infusion is a pretty well proven "concept". This was agreed upon by economists of all stripes. It was the mechanisms that were in question, not the need. And, people were by and large pissed off about bailing out giant firms (myself included). It distorted the reality most of us saw at the time.
But yeah, northeast was just right about the first thing ever. You would have been bankrupt with the lot of us. We didn't have the ability to devalue the druid metal this go round.