Hantlers
Well-Known Member
I would actually agree with this.
Should We Reward Good Students?
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I would actually agree with this.
JimLes
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I never said hard work is worthless, I said it's a less important factor in accomplishing one's goals than you make it out to be. External factors and the way you set your goals are much more important. Your goals largely have to be tailored to those external factors. You call that "accepting what life has given you" and look down upon it as a negative thing, I call it being realistic.
The problem with the idea of teaching kids that "hard work is the most important factor in success" is that they're kids. The moment this proves, in their eyes, to be false, how are you going to motivate them. I hope you have some idea of how difficult it can be to motivate kids. The younger they are, the more they lack the ability to plan long-term, the more simplistic their views on morality are(this is a real ****, kids 12-15 have a really strong belief in absolute morality...all good is rewarded, all evil is punished), and the harder it is for them to understand broad concepts like that.
The idea in the original article linked is absolutely ridiculous, on several levels. First of all, no one is motivated by freaking pizza. It's hardly a reward that'd be the stuff of any kid's dreams. I'm sure empirical research here would find no correlation between pizza offered and learning objectives achieved. The school in question is a middle school. I'm going to assume that's the same thing as a Junior High School in Canada, meaning kids ages 12-15. If I'm wrong, most of my arguments might be moot, so forgive me for that and ignore the rest.
Kids that age have already been in a structured learning environment for at least 6-7 years. Those who haven't(I've taught kids whose childhood reality was refugee camps in Sudan, but those are outliers) are generally more messed up than this situation warrants getting into. From my experience, success and failure at school at that age can largely be predicted based on patterns. Or rather, the outcomes tend to match patterns. Kids who are not doing well in school at that age are not doing well for one of a handful of reasons.
The curriculum as it stands may be too difficult for them. There may be cognitive disabilities at work, there may be simpler learning disabilities. These can, of course, be mitigated, but most certainly not by pizza. There are kids who have no help at home, either directly or through lack of a good example. If a kid is 12 and has been taught repeatedly that school and education are not important, pizza won't fix it. Then there are kids who are actually lazy, which again is going to be a problem that's been dragging itself behind them for 6-7 years. Pizza doesn't change that, especially since as I've mentioned above, they're not really good at planning ahead. Most lazy kids are lazy partly because education isn't built around instant reward, which is what they seek.
Success can be broken down like this, too, but there's no need to go through it point-by-point. The reality is that for both the kids getting the party and the kids not getting the party, there will be no tangible benefits. Kids who are successful are already successful, either through hard work, sheer luck(DNA), parental support, or some combination thereof. The kids who aren't successful aren't successful for the exact same reasons. All the pizza party does is draw an even stronger line between them. Funnily enough, it reinforces exactly what you're accusing me of doing -- that those who are successful will continue to get everything, and those who aren't will continue to get nothing. It does nothing to fix the underlying problems. It just masks them and presents them in such a way as to confuse young, impressionable kids.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
Also, on a related note and as a question for everyone in this thread. When I talk to kids 12-17 who aren't doing as well in school as they (or their parents) would like to be doing, I first ask them why they think they aren't doing well? What do you think the most common answer is?
AtheistPreacher
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure, interested to hear the answer. But if I had to guess based on your posts here, it would be that they think it's their own fault for not applying themselves enough.
So, that's like saying with enough hard work, I could be King of England?
Of course.
The truths disgusts you, and you're taking it out on the messenger.
Your belief that this is the way it is does not make it truth.
I agree. My belief is not what makes it true. it's being true is why I accept it.
Hahahaha. Thanks I needed that.
Hantlers
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LogGrad98
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You sure you're not mormon?
JimLes
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Very rarely do they have that sort of self-awareness. The most common answer is "Because I'm stupid." They confuse and conflate all those other issues I listed with lack of intelligence. That's what makes it so hard to help them.
AtheistPreacher
Well-Known Member
That would have been my second guess. But from your posts you were making it sound like most students believe it's all ultimately under their control. But if they don't think that, then it doesn't seem so unimportant to teach them that most things are beyond their control, does it? Apparently they already know that.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
The issue here is that if you take a kid who's got poor learning habits, or lacks a prior knowledge base, or has a learning disability, or whatever other issue, and tell them to simply work hard, you'll just reinforce their belief they're stupid. They'll put in effort for some time, it won't have the effect they think(if they're lead to believe that A students are A students simply due to hard work) and their beliefs will be vindicated. How could they not? You tried the same thing as the other kids, and you're not doing as well. Wouldn't you think you were stupid?
In order to motivate these kids, you gotta explain to them that it's just not that simple. There won't be instant results, and things won't magically improve overnight. I really strongly believe in explaining to kids that not everyone's circumstances are identical and you have to tailor your goals and approach to yours.
One thing I like to do at the beginning of the semester is give kids little cards to fill out. I ask them about themselves, what they like about my subject, what they don't like, what they're looking forward to, what I should know about them, but I also ask them what their goals are in class. Teenagers being teenagers nearly always answer in form of a grade. Since they've generally gone to the same school the year before, it's easy to find out what grade they had that year. You always have kids who had something like 50 or 60% in the earlier class, and they tell me they're aiming for 90% this year. It may seem cruel, but I have to break it to them that it's probably not going to happen. Rarely do you make such a jump, unless your initial problem was that you didn't hand things in but you really know your stuff.
I don't want to set these kids up for failure and disappointment. I have a duty to talk to them and I always do. When I ask them how they plan to accomplish this massive jump, they usually say "I'm going to work hard." The reality is that most kids will have within +/- 10 percentage points as the year before. Them's the odds. Sure, you can beat the odds, but then you're an outlier. And we can't all be outliers.
It's not about telling kids things are outside or within their control. It's about teaching them how to recognize which things are which.
AtheistPreacher
Well-Known Member
Seems like a lot of verbiage that boils down to something simple: manage your expectations. People have different abilities and different circumstances, and so doing the same actions aren't going to bring the same results with one student that they do for another.
And again, a lot of verbiage thrown around this thread when I think we all basically agree that working harder is better, but that people need to realize that working hard is only one of many factors in achieving their goals.
But I'm not sure how much all this actually speaks to whether or how much we should "reward" good students. Either way has positives and negatives, I suppose, depending on the psychology of each individual kid. For some, rewards will be a positive incentive, and for others who are always on the outside, it may contribute to them feeling helpless at the futility of it all. Either way, it's about getting kids to work harder to whatever degree that it will help, even if the difference is small.
LogGrad98
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Wise words.
I have found it to generate the best productivity and general satisfaction among my employees to set goals with them that are within their reach, stretches them individually, contributes to the overall success of the organization, and then identify and reinforce the right behaviors to help them reach those goals. If they have a part in the goal setting and buy into what we are trying to do, then it builds more personal satisfaction in each of them. This also allows for their individual differences and lets them grow in ways meaningful to them that still has an impact on the bottom line. Of course it cannot always be that way, but if that is the general framework in which we operate then telling them to "work hard" gives them not only a frame of reference, but also a clear understanding of what hard work and good results look like, as well as the rewards that are thereby attainable.
I think this same general idea would work well for students too. We have used this method with our kids generally and they seem to have gotten more out of school, even when they weren't the top kid in the class. Even with our 17 year old who is dealing with epilepsy and struggles mightily to even perform at basic passing levels. At least he knows what hard work can get him, what it means to work hard, and how to translate that into his personal circumstances. I think that is half the battle.
Again, my comments concern this post:
https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?25417-Should-We-Reward-Good-Students/page3&p=772850#post772850
Your post did not address a single point of JimLes' argument and you made no attempt to support an alternate view; instead you misinterpreted what he said and then attacked him directly. I see no reason to revise my opinion so far. You didn't like the very true statements that were made, but having no rebuttal took it out on the poster instead of the argument. I accept that interpretation because it seems to be true.
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When I see reliable evidence Mormonism is true, I'll accept it. Meanwhile, I'll take your question as a compliment. Thank you.
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
At some point one realizes that the continual arguing is pointless. You're good at deflecting and changing the topic, but you're not quite as smart as you think you are Eric. Stick to your strong points, the few that you have.