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Somebody explain Derrick Williams love to a Jazz Fan

NUMBERICA said:
I seem to remember everyone thinking Beasley might be half-crazy but might be a PF/C until he measured out as a tweener, only one position lower. I also see Williams as more athletic, or at he very least, far more aggressive to take advantage of what he's been given.

And don't go by their freshman numbers. You're comparing a sensational one-and-done top-100 player to a guy that made himself and has a great head on his shoulders. If you give Michael Beasley a brain, and in this **** draft, drafting him at two or three is a decision everyone makes. Or should. Maybe not the Timberwolves since they are cursed and retarded.
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I'm not discounting Beasley's mental issues. But it's a little naive to assume Williams will make a clean transition when the same scouts that said Beasley would have no trouble doing it are iffy that Williams can. The point is it's not purely mental. A guy like Cousins, a true basket case, had little difficulty because he's playing the exact same way he played in college brutalizing the paint and using his array of post moves to score. Guys like Williams and Beasley, who scored a lot of college points posting up, suddenly have to find ways to score off the dribble and movement while defending guys that run around really fast. It's a very big transition.
 
billyshelby said:
I'm not discounting Beasley's mental issues. But it's a little naive to assume Williams will make a clean transition when the same scouts that said Beasley would have no trouble doing it are iffy that Williams can. The point is it's not purely mental. A guy like Cousins, a true basket case, had little difficulty because he's playing the exact same way he played in college brutalizing the paint and using his array of post moves to score. Guys like Williams and Beasley, who scored a lot of college points posting up, suddenly have to find ways to score off the dribble and movement while defending guys that run around really fast. It's a very big transition.
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Umm. Michael Beasley's problem transitioning has been close to 100% mental. He shrunk because he was forced to start thinking and couldn't just destroy the competition on auto-pilot. And Cousins hasn't had a perfect year either. He might be ROY if he didn't have parts of his brain rotting.
 
billyshelby said:
A guy like Cousins, a true basket case, had little difficulty because he's playing the exact same way he played in college brutalizing the paint and using his array of post moves to score.
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I was a big Cousins fan, but the stats don't support this post. Cousins shot 43% from the floor this season. He wasn't brutalizing anything.
 
GVC said:
I was a big Cousins fan, but the stats don't support this post. Cousins shot 43% from the floor this season. He wasn't brutalizing anything.
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I don't concern myself that greatly with any rookie's stats. I look at what they can do. Cousins is a really skilled player with a naturally big body and he knows how to use it. He takes stupid shots and gets into foul trouble. And he's probably not going to improve his FG% greatly for a year or two. But he's very tough to defend and if he has the talent to be a beast.
 
GVC said:
You don't seem to concern yourself with any veteran's stats.
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I concern myself with them plenty. I just don't think stats tell the whole picture. But I'm also not watching 20 odd Jazz games off a pirated internet feed on a cracked monitor in my toolshed. I saw Cousins play about 15 times last year. Saw Al 82. They're both very talented. But if all you do is look at spreadsheets, you probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about.
 
I watched the highlights of the 2nd day the combine again. Derrick Williams moves very well on the agility drills. Better than Jimmer Fredette, and Jordan Hamilton. He has the athletic ability to the play the 3. There is still a lot of work he needs to put in to learn how to defend on the perimeter. But I can see it happening now.
 
billyshelby said:
I concern myself with them plenty. I just don't think stats tell the whole picture. But I'm also not watching 20 odd Jazz games off a pirated internet feed on a cracked monitor in my toolshed. I saw Cousins play about 15 times last year. Saw Al 82. They're both very talented. But if all you do is look at spreadsheets, you probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about.
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I never said stats told the whole picture. Big Al is far worse than his stats indicate, for example, since they fail to capture his poor transition and overall team play.

As for Cousins, he's young and he plays for a **** coach who jerked him around all season. I think he'll pan out, but you never know. Big Al has now had 7 seasons to figure things out, and has yet to show any ability to compete at a sufficiently high level. His conditioning is awful, his on-court desire generally lacking. I don't think he hates losing nearly enough.

You seem to mistake players' sporadic flashes of brilliance for potential (as evidenced by your continuing CJ love), but if players take enough shots (especially when they shouldn't), they're bound to look special once in a while. It would serve you well to be a bit more critical of your judgments. Sometimes first impressions and "the eye test" do a poor job of representing reality.

It's hard to have an intelligent conversation/argument with someone who relies on his eyes alone, despite evidence to the contrary.
 
We've been down this road over and over. All I need to see are comments like "his on court desire is lacking" and "I don't think he hates losing nearly enough" to confirm that you just don't watch games. You take breaks from Halo to look at numbers and draw overreaching conclusions. But as long as the numbers add up to something in your head, you're convinced you've tapped into incontrovertible truth. And relative to Al, two straight months of averaging 23 and 11 is not some arbitrary hot streak. But you'd have to be watching all those games, and the ones he didn't play well in before, to see what I'm talking about.

Unlike you, I'm combining the 'eye test' with stats. You just look at stats, watch a game here or there, and let your predetermined conclusions inform your "observations."
 
billyshelby said:
We've been down this road over and over. All I need to see are comments like "his on court desire is lacking" and "I don't think he hates losing nearly enough" to confirm that you just don't watch games. You take breaks from Halo to look at numbers and draw overreaching conclusions. But as long as the numbers add up to something in your head, you're convinced you've tapped into incontrovertible truth. And relative to Al, two straight months of averaging 23 and 11 is not some arbitrary hot streak. But you'd have to be watching all those games, and the ones he didn't play well in before, to see what I'm talking about.

Unlike you, I'm combining the 'eye test' with stats. You just look at stats, watch a game here or there, and let your predetermined conclusions inform your "observations."
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Even his hot streak wasn't as hot as people around here like to pretend (we've been over this before).

As for predetermined conclusions: Pot.Kettle.Black.

Do you deny that Al's conditioning is poor? That his BBIQ is lacking? That he is inefficient with the ball in his hands? That his teams get consistently outscored by their opponents (much worse than when he's off the court)? As far as I can tell, these are undeniable FACTS. Drooling over his potential at this point is disingenuous. Could he be the next Z-Bo? Sure, and I certainly hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who's the next inefficient chucker you're going to pimp on these boards?
 
GVC said:
Even his hot streak wasn't as hot as people around here like to pretend (we've been over this before).

As for predetermined conclusions: Pot.Kettle.Black.

Do you deny that Al's conditioning is poor? That his BBIQ is lacking? That he is inefficient with the ball in his hands? That his teams get consistently outscored by their opponents (much worse than when he's off the court)? As far as I can tell, these are undeniable FACTS. Drooling over his potential at this point is disingenuous. Could he be the next Z-Bo? Sure, and I certainly hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Who's the next inefficient chucker you're going to pimp on these boards?
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His hot streak wasn't that hot? From February to April, like 25 consecutive games, he averaged 24 and 11. Shooting about 54%. You're right he wasn't that hot. He was on fire.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue things like BBIQ with a guy who might have watched 20 games and laughably call his observations FACTS.

Here's an opinion: You would have undoubtedly been one of the Memphis fans who, after definitively analyzing Zach Randolph's stats, determined he was a mediocre power forward and absolutely had to be traded. And I'm sure you wouldn't have bet on his improvement either. You know why?

You don't watch the games. You would have never seen Randolph's skill level. You would have never accounted for his being able to translate that skill to a system. You would have said his 'lack of conditioning' would always hold him back. You would have concluded Zach 'didn't care about losing' or whatever nonsense the numbers told you about a player's psyche.
 
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