The Growing Thirst for Cruelty

[Red]

David Brooks is a hack.

OK, but this paragraph spoke volumes for myself. I’m a baby boomer, if that means anything re how I feel, which he captures perfectly in this paragraph:

“Until January 20, 2025, I didn’t realize how much of my very identity was built on this faith in my country’s goodness—on the idea that we Americans are partners in a grand and heroic enterprise, that our daily lives are ennobled by service to that cause. Since January 20, as I have watched America behave vilely—toward our friends in Canada and Mexico, toward our friends in Europe, toward the heroes in Ukraine and President Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office—I’ve had trouble describing the anguish I’ve experienced. Grief? Shock? Like I’m living through some sort of hallucination? Maybe the best description for what I’m feeling is moral shame: To watch the loss of your nation’s honor is embarrassing and painful”.

That paragraph matches my own feelings. 100%. Some, in my generation, feel that everything changed in the United States on 11/22/63, when JFK was killed. I can understand that. The “death of Camelot” did seem like a an inflection point that ended idealism in the American experiment. Still does for many who were alive at that time. Vietnam and Watergate drove me away from being an engaged citizen. For decades. But, Trump’s appearance resulted in the feelings and attitude described in the above paragraph by Brooks.

He may be a hack, but his feelings match my own, perfectly, in what he’s saying, and I appreciate him for that truth. What he is saying is the very loss I feel, and millions of other Americans, of that I am certain. Trump made me realize I still cared. I didn’t realize how much I still gave a damn. And what I care about is the loss of what Brooks nails in the above paragraph. I know what that feels like. And, for any American who does know these feelings, it’s a tremendous loss. Call him what you want, he nailed how all this affected myself.

 

[Zombie]

View: https://bsky.app/profile/marisakabas.bsky.social/post/3lmf32p7rwc2m


This is absolutely sickening

 

[fishonjazz]

View: https://bsky.app/profile/marisakabas.bsky.social/post/3lmf32p7rwc2m


This is absolutely sickening

Just heard on KSL this morning that there are a bunch of U of U foreign students who just had their visa revoked.

 

[str8line]

Just heard on KSL this morning that there are a bunch of U of U foreign students who just had their visa revoked.

Probably some of the smartest people at the U too.

 

[LogGrad98]

David Brooks is a hack. Of course he found a way to put some of the blame on the exact group of people who have been warning about this for decades:

Of course, the left made it easy for them. The left really did purge conservatives from universities and other cultural power centers. The left really did valorize a “meritocratic” caste system that privileged the children of the affluent and screwed the working class. The left really did pontificate to their unenlightened moral inferiors on everything from gender to the environment. The left really did create a stifling orthodoxy that stamped out dissent. If you tell half the country that their voices don’t matter, then the voiceless are going to flip over the table.

What a load of ********.

Don't be blind to what might be a negative look from the other political party in our country. This is generally true or at least it represents the perceptions of a large proportion of our population, which by the way DID indeed make them ripe to support a demagogue that gave voice to the marginalization they felt. even if much of it was based on perceptions and not fact. It won't help the country to go from one quasi-religious dictatorial leader to a party that the other half feel can do no wrong. That is a dangerous way to view it and will lead to further problems in the electorate. The "savior" complex occurs on both sides, don't be blind to the things that need to be fixed in both parties as we try desperately to stop the most dangerous demagogue our country has likely seen. We can't just say "hey those republicans are fascists, come over to the Perfect Party where we never do anything wrong". Because that would truly be ********.

Have you ever read this? Echoes the same sentiments, but from the perspective of a true-blue democrat and progressive liberal.

Anthony Bourdain on Sichuan Peppers, Sex, Eating Dogs, and Political Correctness

An exclusive post-election interview with the culinary celebrity host of Parts Unknown.

reason.com

We need to not only fix the fascist crisis we are facing right now, but also find a way to fix the issues that set up the rise of the demagogue in the first place, and not a small part of that came from the way the left viewed and treated the right.

From Bourdain:

I've spent a lot of time in gun-country, God-fearing America. There are a hell of a lot of nice people out there, who are doing what everyone else in this world is trying to do: the best they can to get by, and take care of themselves and the people they love. When we deny them their basic humanity and legitimacy of their views, however different they may be than ours, when we mock them at every turn, and treat them with contempt, we do no one any good. Nothing nauseates me more than preaching to the converted. The self-congratulatory tone of the privileged left—just repeating and repeating and repeating the outrages of the opposition—this does not win hearts and minds. It doesn't change anyone's opinions. It only solidifies them, and makes things worse for all of us. We should be breaking bread with each other, and finding common ground whenever possible. I fear that is not at all what we've done.

 

[Zombie]

Don't be blind to what might be a negative look from the other political party in our country. This is generally true or at least it represents the perceptions of a large proportion of our population, which by the way DID indeed make them ripe to support a demagogue that gave voice to the marginalization they felt. even if much of it was based on perceptions and not fact. It won't help the country to go from one quasi-religious dictatorial leader to a party that the other half feel can do no wrong. That is a dangerous way to view it and will lead to further problems in the electorate. The "savior" complex occurs on both sides, don't be blind to the things that need to be fixed in both parties as we try desperately to stop the most dangerous demagogue our country has likely seen. We can't just say "hey those republicans are fascists, come over to the Perfect Party where we never do anything wrong". Because that would truly be ********.

Have you ever read this? Echoes the same sentiments, but from the perspective of a true-blue democrat and progressive liberal.

Anthony Bourdain on Sichuan Peppers, Sex, Eating Dogs, and Political Correctness

An exclusive post-election interview with the culinary celebrity host of Parts Unknown.

reason.com

We need to not only fix the fascist crisis we are facing right now, but also find a way to fix the issues that set up the rise of the demagogue in the first place, and not a small part of that came from the way the left viewed and treated the right.

From Bourdain:

I've spent a lot of time in gun-country, God-fearing America. There are a hell of a lot of nice people out there, who are doing what everyone else in this world is trying to do: the best they can to get by, and take care of themselves and the people they love. When we deny them their basic humanity and legitimacy of their views, however different they may be than ours, when we mock them at every turn, and treat them with contempt, we do no one any good. Nothing nauseates me more than preaching to the converted. The self-congratulatory tone of the privileged left—just repeating and repeating and repeating the outrages of the opposition—this does not win hearts and minds. It doesn't change anyone's opinions. It only solidifies them, and makes things worse for all of us. We should be breaking bread with each other, and finding common ground whenever possible. I fear that is not at all what we've done.

I’m a little confused by this reply. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about the Democratic Party, much less suggest that they should be trusted as a party that can do no wrong.

Let’s just examine what David Brooks is claiming in that paragraph I quoted. First we have the eternal conservative complaint about conservative thought and speech being stifled at universities. If you’re still falling for this in the year of our lord 2025, then I don’t even know what to say. Please, point to anything the left has done that even approaches the DEI bans or the attacks on pro Palestinian faculty and students. Those are actual purges. This is particularly galling coming from a man who has enjoyed the prestige of multiple visiting professorships at incredibly prestigious schools, on account of nothing other than his status as a leading conservative “thinker.”

Next he claims the left has valorized a meritocratic caste system, privileging the elite at the expense of the poor. This is a baffling thing to say, and it makes me wonder what his definition of the “left” even is. I would agree that one of the Democratic Party’s major failings of the last few decades has been in addressing the material needs of working class people, but I would hardly argue that they are unique in that regard. Let’s just take a look at what David himself has said on the topic of meritocratic elites:

Huh, that looks a lot of like valorizing to me! I think you’d be hard pressed to find a single person on the left, democrat or otherwise, expressing such a sentiment.

Now we get to the tone policing. David claims the left “pontificated” too much about climate and LGBTQ rights. I think David would consider any discussion of these topics from a left wing PoV to be pontificating. What he’s really saying here is that Democrats should simply abandon these issues. Again, very convenient.

Finally, an accusation of the left wing being too “stifling,” and not allowing dissent. This ************ has had a national platform granted to him by liberal media outlets for DECADES. His conservative views have in no way been silenced by the left. Nor is he unique in that regard, editorial pages are absolutely brimming with views like his.

Now that that is out of the way, I do agree that the democrats have long had a messaging problem, largely driven by out of touch leadership who ought to have retired ages ago. But I’m sick and tired of conservatives assuaging their guilt over our current predicament by pointing to the same grievances that led us here in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Don't be blind to what might be a negative look from the other political party in our country. This is generally true or at least it represents the perceptions of a large proportion of our population, which by the way DID indeed make them ripe to support a demagogue that gave voice to the marginalization they felt. even if much of it was based on perceptions and not fact. It won't help the country to go from one quasi-religious dictatorial leader to a party that the other half feel can do no wrong. That is a dangerous way to view it and will lead to further problems in the electorate. The "savior" complex occurs on both sides, don't be blind to the things that need to be fixed in both parties as we try desperately to stop the most dangerous demagogue our country has likely seen. We can't just say "hey those republicans are fascists, come over to the Perfect Party where we never do anything wrong". Because that would truly be ********.

Have you ever read this? Echoes the same sentiments, but from the perspective of a true-blue democrat and progressive liberal.

Anthony Bourdain on Sichuan Peppers, Sex, Eating Dogs, and Political Correctness

An exclusive post-election interview with the culinary celebrity host of Parts Unknown.

reason.com

We need to not only fix the fascist crisis we are facing right now, but also find a way to fix the issues that set up the rise of the demagogue in the first place, and not a small part of that came from the way the left viewed and treated the right.

From Bourdain:

I've spent a lot of time in gun-country, God-fearing America. There are a hell of a lot of nice people out there, who are doing what everyone else in this world is trying to do: the best they can to get by, and take care of themselves and the people they love. When we deny them their basic humanity and legitimacy of their views, however different they may be than ours, when we mock them at every turn, and treat them with contempt, we do no one any good. Nothing nauseates me more than preaching to the converted. The self-congratulatory tone of the privileged left—just repeating and repeating and repeating the outrages of the opposition—this does not win hearts and minds. It doesn't change anyone's opinions. It only solidifies them, and makes things worse for all of us. We should be breaking bread with each other, and finding common ground whenever possible. I fear that is not at all what we've done.

How has “the left” mistreated “the right?”

And does it work both ways? Because I’ve never heard this argument framed the opposite way.

I think we should consider that “the left” isn’t responsible for “the right” developing a hunger for fascism. Perhaps the right is what it is because of decades of indoctrination from its own side? You can’t give yourself decades of Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Karl Rove, and so many others without it taking a toll. Have we considered that the right is the way it is because it has allowed itself to indulge in the worst emotions and impulses of humanity? Unchecked religious bigotry, repressed sexual identities, and indulging in misogyny and racism has led the right to where it is now. Not Anything “the left” did.

Am radio and Fox News found large demand for their vitriolic (propaganda) product and like the drug dealers they are, have got a large segment of the population hooked. Through decades of this drug abuse, abusers are demanding harder and harder stuff. Perhaps the right was happy just with the waterboarding and birth certificate stuff 15-20 years ago? Now, they crave the blood of brown people sent to be tortured in El Salvador. They might’ve just been satisfied with Fox News 20 years ago? Now they demand Joe Rogan, Candace Owens, Benny Johnson, and Newsmax. Have we considered that The radicalization of the right can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the right, not the left? Have we considered how this radicalization has pulled low info voters into the conspiracy and paranoia of the right? How many non-political people routinely echo right wing talking pts? “Europe is ripping us off, universities are mean to conservatives, higher taxes is socialism, vaccines cause autism, Trump is good at business, covid was overblown, schools are turning kids gay/trans, etc?”

The Democratic Party isn’t perfect. But the blaming of the left and how it has pushed the right to the right is a thesis that just lacks evidence to me. I file it under the excuse of “economic anxiety” for Trump winning in 2016. When in reality, racial resentment was by far the biggest factor.

Have we read this?

New Data: Republican Voters Want Authoritarianism

Inside the World Values Survey.

www.thebulwark.com

 

[Deleted member 365]

I’m a little confused by this reply. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about the Democratic Party, much less suggest that they should be trusted as a party that can do no wrong.

Let’s just examine what David Brooks is claiming in that paragraph I quoted. First we have the eternal conservative complaint about conservative thought and speech being stifled at universities. If you’re still falling for this in the year of our lord 2025, then I don’t even know what to say. Please, point to anything the left has done that even approaches the DEI bans or the attacks on pro Palestinian faculty and students. Those are actual purges. This is particularly galling coming from a man who has enjoyed the prestige of multiple visiting professorships at incredibly prestigious schools, on account of nothing other than his status as a leading conservative “thinker.”

Next he claims the left has valorized a meritocratic caste system, privileging the elite at the expense of the poor. This is a baffling thing to say, and it makes me wonder what his definition of the “left” even is. I would agree that one of the Democratic Party’s major failings of the last few decades has been in addressing the material needs of working class people, but I would hardly argue that they are unique in that regard. Let’s just take a look at what David himself has said on the topic of meritocratic elites:
View attachment 18498
Huh, that looks a lot of like valorizing to me! I think you’d be hard pressed to find a single person on the left, democrat or otherwise, expressing such a sentiment.

Now we get to the tone policing. David claims the left “pontificated” too much about climate and LGBTQ rights. I think David would consider any discussion of these topics from a left wing PoV to be pontificating. What he’s really saying here is that Democrats should simply abandon these issues. Again, very convenient.

Finally, an accusation of the left wing being too “stifling,” and not allowing dissent. This ************ has had a national platform granted to him by liberal media outlets for DECADES. His conservative views have in no way been silenced by the left. Nor is he unique in that regard, editorial pages are absolutely brimming with views like his.

Now that that is out of the way, I do agree that the democrats have long had a messaging problem, largely driven by out of touch leadership who ought to have retired ages ago. But I’m sick and tired of conservatives assuaging their guilt over our current predicament by pointing to the same grievances that led us here in the first place.

I love this post so much.

Well said good sir well said

Dems also have a messaging problem due to lack of resources. There’s no equivalent to Fox News on the left. Or am radio. Or Sinclair Broadcasting. There’s no federalist society on the left to train and network liberal judges. There’s no Koch bros. I challenge anyone here to name the heritage foundation of the left. There’s no Rogan, Shapiro, Kirk, and other dudebro podcasts on the left. Even Democratic issues like equality, climate change, etc are deemed feminine and “out of step” with the culture while Republican issues like tax cuts and guns are deemed masculine and “in step” with the culture.

And to be honest, I don’t know how the left can break through in the long term to break the fascism network the right has built up. Once Trump passes, what’s stopped a smarter younger fascist from inheriting the same propaganda network and billionaire dollars from finishing what trump Has started?

Providing health care for others isn’t a money making scheme. It’s boring to build roads or fund disease research. What billionaire gives a **** about LGBTs? Certainly not the world’s richest man, who does everything in his power to crush these people. Until more American elites and capitalists recognize that democracy, rule of law, multiculturalism (and valuing world alliances) and equality is good for business, we’re gonna be in a world of Russian like oligarchic trouble.

The right gets to have billionaires fund them because welfare for them is much more lucrative than providing health care for poor, old, and sick people.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Why not treat them like slaves? And when they die, use them as bundles of wood?


View: https://bsky.app/profile/rollingstone.com/post/3lmfobcu26c2s


Who did NAZI this coming?

 

[LogGrad98]

How has “the left” mistreated “the right?”

And does it work both ways? Because I’ve never heard this argument framed the opposite way.

I think we should consider that “the left” isn’t responsible for “the right” developing a hunger for fascism. Perhaps the right is what it is because of decades of indoctrination from its own side? You can’t give yourself decades of Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Karl Rove, and so many others without it taking a toll. Have we considered that the right is the way it is because it has allowed itself to indulge in the worst emotions and impulses of humanity? Unchecked religious bigotry, repressed sexual identities, and indulging in misogyny and racism has led the right to where it is now. Not Anything “the left” did.

Am radio and Fox News found large demand for their vitriolic (propaganda) product and like the drug dealers they are, have got a large segment of the population hooked. Through decades of this drug abuse, abusers are demanding harder and harder stuff. Perhaps the right was happy just with the waterboarding and birth certificate stuff 15-20 years ago? Now, they crave the blood of brown people sent to be tortured in El Salvador. They might’ve just been satisfied with Fox News 20 years ago? Now they demand Joe Rogan, Candace Owens, Benny Johnson, and Newsmax. Have we considered that The radicalization of the right can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the right, not the left? Have we considered how this radicalization has pulled low info voters into the conspiracy and paranoia of the right? How many non-political people routinely echo right wing talking pts? “Europe is ripping us off, universities are mean to conservatives, higher taxes is socialism, vaccines cause autism, Trump is good at business, covid was overblown, schools are turning kids gay/trans, etc?”

The Democratic Party isn’t perfect. But the blaming of the left and how it has pushed the right to the right is a thesis that just lacks evidence to me. I file it under the excuse of “economic anxiety” for Trump winning in 2016. When in reality, racial resentment was by far the biggest factor.

Have we read this?

New Data: Republican Voters Want Authoritarianism

Inside the World Values Survey.

www.thebulwark.com

Lots of "oh yeah well what about this" rather than just acknowledging that the left isn't perfect. Hand waving these issue aside is part of the problem. See 2 things can be true at the same time, the right can be largely a bunch of fascist pigs AND the left forcing their self-proclaimed moral high-ground on others they seemed to be inconsequential can both be true. And they are definitely tied together. No one claimed cause and effect but for us to move forward we have to make improvements in both arenas. We can't just say "see, I told you so, everyone who disagree with us should have been cancelled from the beginning and none of this would have happened". It doesn't do anything to unite. The funny thing about your response and zombies is you both completely missed the part quoting from Bourdain about breaking bread, finding common ground and uniting the people. You are still focused on right=bad, left=good instead of where do we go from here and how do we heal a fractured nation. But that's exactly what Bourdain talked about. He had it right.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Lots of "oh yeah well what about this" rather than just acknowledging that the left isn't perfect. Hand waving these issue aside is part of the problem. See 2 things can be true at the same time, the right can be largely a bunch of fascist pigs AND the left forcing their self-proclaimed moral high-ground on others they seemed to be inconsequential can both be true. And they are definitely tied together. No one claimed cause and effect but for us to move forward we have to make improvements in both arenas. We can't just say "see, I told you so, everyone who disagree with us should have been cancelled from the beginning and none of this would have happened". It doesn't do anything to unite. The funny thing about your response and zombies is you both completely missed the part quoting from Bourdain about breaking bread, finding common ground and uniting the people. You are still focused on right=bad, left=good instead of where do we go from here and how do we heal a fractured nation. But that's exactly what Bourdain talked about. He had it right.

No one here has claimed or is claiming that the left is perfect.

But only on side is blaming their own extremism on the other party. Why is that?

 

[str8line]

Lots of "oh yeah well what about this" rather than just acknowledging that the left isn't perfect. Hand waving these issue aside is part of the problem. See 2 things can be true at the same time, the right can be largely a bunch of fascist pigs AND the left forcing their self-proclaimed moral high-ground on others they seemed to be inconsequential can both be true. And they are definitely tied together. No one claimed cause and effect but for us to move forward we have to make improvements in both arenas. We can't just say "see, I told you so, everyone who disagree with us should have been cancelled from the beginning and none of this would have happened". It doesn't do anything to unite. The funny thing about your response and zombies is you both completely missed the part quoting from Bourdain about breaking bread, finding common ground and uniting the people. You are still focused on right=bad, left=good instead of where do we go from here and how do we heal a fractured nation. But that's exactly what Bourdain talked about. He had it right.

I hope someday we can break bread but the right are either assholes or incredibly stupid. Makes it tough.