The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[One Brow]

Transgender women recently setting records in several sports (cycling, weightlifting) has caused quite a stir. I can understand why there are biologically female athletes that are bothered by this. No matter what the "solution" is, someone is not going to like it.

The real question is not whether these women were transgender, but do transgender women generally have an advantage? Are the top 3/4 female cyclists/weightlifters/etc. all transgender, or are these women unusual among transgender athletes generally?

 

[Hotdog]

The real question is not whether these women were transgender, but do transgender women generally have an advantage? Are the top 3/4 female cyclists/weightlifters/etc. all transgender, or are these women unusual among transgender athletes generally?

Nah. The real question is why dont we just mix all men and women's sports? If its no big deal for transgender to cross over to the otherside and compete, then why not? What's the difference?

 

[One Brow]

Nah. The real question is why dont we just mix all men and women's sports?

A valid, but different, question.

If its no big deal for transgender to cross over to the otherside and compete, then why not? What's the difference?

This is where your history of being a troll works against you. If I thought you were serious, I would be happy to go into the difference from my limited point of view, and point out some others who can cover it better. I doubt your serious enough to bother with.

 

[Gameface]

I'd like to have the conversation too. I'm curious as to what the solution might be.

Transgender women recently setting records in several sports (cycling, weightlifting) has caused quite a stir. I can understand why there are biologically female athletes that are bothered by this. No matter what the "solution" is, someone is not going to like it.

I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.

I think this is an issue that the transgender community needs to give a little on, honestly. I can't imagine anyone transitioning in ernest just so that they can get a couple wins in a sport, but I also don't think it's an impossibility.

*I don't really know what I would define as "high level sports" but generally when you're in a position to set a world record in a sport I'd say that qualifies.

In lower level sports, youth sports, etc. I think it gets a lot more murky, but I feel there should be a much more significant tendency to let all people participate.

 

[LogGrad98]

A valid, but different, question.



This is where your history of being a troll works against you. If I thought you were serious, I would be happy to go into the difference from my limited point of view, and point out some others who can cover it better. I doubt your serious enough to bother with.

I have the same question. Should sports just become mixed gender? That's a tough one imo. It also starts to get into the space of biological vs societal gender association. It's hard to argue there isn't a biological difference that would give some transgendered individuals what could be viewed as an unfair advantage.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.

I think this is an issue that the transgender community needs to give a little on, honestly. I can't imagine anyone transitioning in ernest just so that they can get a couple wins in a sport, but I also don't think it's an impossibility.

*I don't really know what I would define as "high level sports" but generally when you're in a position to set a world record in a sport I'd say that qualifies.

In lower level sports, youth sports, etc. I think it gets a lot more murky, but I feel there should be a much more significant tendency to let all people participate.

It is now really sport specific. My daughters and sons all played soccer when they were young, all on mixed teams. When my oldest son started football there was a minor uproar because a couple of girls wanted to play as well an there frankly isn't any football organizations for females. I mean, not at all. My son was 12 at the time and one girl they allowed in his team was 13 and bigger than most of the boys. She did well. But there are some very strong biological gender biases in sports at every level.

 

[checkbookdoc]

In order to tackle the issue of transgender sports participation you need to first decide why women sports exist.

If the purpose of women's sports (i.e., the reason men aren't included) is to provide a setting in which women can associate and form friendships/bonds then I think it is appropriate for trans-women to be included. In other words, if it is like a sorority trans-women should generally be included. On the other hand, if women's sports exclude men primarily because men are physically dominant and they don't want to compete with them, then I don't believe trans-women should be included. There is NO DOUBT (none, zero, zilch, nada!) that trans-women have significant physical advantages.

It seems to me that in professional sports men are excluded because of their physical competitive advantages. For that reason, I don't believe Trans-women should be allowed to compete professionally. The more complex issue is for high school athletics, which is more about personal improvement and socializing than it is competition. I think I would allow trans to compete in high school, but track separate individual records for them (i.e., goals scored, swim/run times, etc.). I would not allow trans-women to compete against natural women in college, because I think it is more about competition.

 

[LogGrad98]

In order to tackle the issue of transgender sports participation you need to first decide why women sports exist.

If the purpose of women's sports (i.e., the reason men aren't included) is to provide a setting in which women can associate and form friendships/bonds then I think it is appropriate for trans-women to be included. In other words, if it is like a sorority trans-women should generally be included. On the other hand, if women's sports exclude men primarily because men are physically dominant and they don't want to compete with them, then I don't believe trans-women should be included. There is NO DOUBT (none, zero, zilch, nada!) that trans-women have significant physical advantages.

It seems to me that in professional sports men are excluded because of their physical competitive advantages. For that reason, I don't believe Trans-women should be allowed to compete professionally. The more complex issue is for high school athletics, which is more about personal improvement and socializing than it is competition. I think I would allow trans to compete in high school, but track separate individual records for them (i.e., goals scored, swim/run times, etc.). I would not allow trans-women to compete against natural women in college, because I think it is more about competition.

Um, why not ask the other way around? Why are women excluded from men's sports? I think women's sports arose because they were systematically and institutionally excluded from "sports" in favor of men. For many years sports were the near exclusive realm of men. So I think the more accurate question is why women were excluded in the first place, because frankly that's the answer to your entire post. Women's sports arose because they were purposely excluded from "men's" sport for decades, if not centuries.

 

[checkbookdoc]

Um, why not ask the other way around? Why are women excluded from men's sports? I think women's sports arose because they were systematically and institutionally excluded from "sports" in favor of men. For many years sports were the near exclusive realm of men. So I think the more accurate question is why women were excluded in the first place, because frankly that's the answer to your entire post. Women's sports arose because they were purposely excluded from "men's" sport for decades, if not centuries.

Good point. Historically I suppose it was probably that women were excluded... but that is often not the case for most major sports, at least in the US (NBA, NFL, MLB, PGA). So I do believe my point still stands. Also, for those sports which women are not allowed to compete with men (track, swimming, tennis, etc.), how many women would want to combine into a single league with only the best players? At the professional level it is about competition, and most women don't want to compete with men in physical activities.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

I'm not educated enough in biology to provide what I would consider a clear point of delineation but I do think there should be a standard, likely related to testosterone, and that standard should not apply the same way to biologically female athletes as it does to transgender female athletes. There should also be some amount of time between the beginning of transition via hormone treatments/hormone blockers, and eligibility to compete in high level* sports.

I'm didn't study biology in college, but I know that the male and female body really start to show significant physical differences during puberty. These differences can't be negated by taking estrogen, even for a sustained period. There is a reason women's sports records are being broken by transgender athletes, but the same thing isn't happening in men's athletics.
We've already drawn a line in the sand for men and women to often compete separately in athletics, do we need to create a 3rd group? I'm pretty sure transgender people don't want that.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'm didn't study biology in college, but I know that the male and female body really start to show significant physical differences during puberty. These differences can't be negated by taking estrogen, even for a sustained period. There is a reason women's sports records are being broken by transgender athletes, but the same thing isn't happening in men's athletics.
We've already drawn a line in the sand for men and women to often compete separately in athletics, do we need to create a 3rd group? I'm pretty sure transgender people don't want that.

The HBA? Human Basketball Association?

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

The HBA? Human Basketball Association?

This makes me think of an episode of "Community", where they declare their school mascot to be the "Human Beings". The mascot could not have any identifying features associated with gender, sex, race, etc.

The Greendale Human Beings: