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The Jazz are in desperate need of a leader

Lakers_Slapper

Lakers_Slapper

Well-Known Member
We are not a bad team. So why do we have a losing record? We NEED a leader!!! We have some really good pieces for a foundation, but we're in need of a true leader/veteran. Our team is young and they have a lot of potential. I think that we would be a completely different team if we had 1 great leader. Someone who is respected, established, and can guide our younger talent. We are paying Hayward the money to where he should be our guy. But he's not. Don't get me wrong he's a great player but doesn't have the leadership mentality. If he did, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in and players would be showing more development than what they have been showing. My question is, do we have a future leader in the group, and all we need is few years of development?
I think its safe to say that we know what we're going to get out of Favors and Hayward. They haven't reached their peak yet, but we should be able to see what we have. If anyone, I would say Gobert is a possibility even though it will be a couple years to tell. And of course we are all hoping that Exum will work out to be the guy that one day fills that role. Again, 4 years away more than likely.
 
Sure, by all means let's sign a crappy veteran to be our "leader." Worked real well when the team was led by guys such as Watson, JLIII and Richard Jefferson. You want fire on the court? Gobert and Booker bring nastiness. You want high BBIQ from less fiery guys? That's provided by Hayward and Ingles. Leadership does not always equal loudness. How old does one need to be to have the mantle of "veteran leader" bestowed upon him? I'd say Hayward qualifies. And he initiates more of the offense than our PG's.

Do you really think a) players aren't showing enough development and b) that's Hayward's fault? Well, if Gordon gets blamed for Trey's shooting woes, then you better credit him for Gobert's amazing leap. Butler has MIP wrapped up, but Gobert is likely #2.

WE have a losing record because the Jazz brought in a new coach with new offensive and defensive schemes. Jazz also have a weak bench and have suffered injuries to their starting and backup SG's. BTW, Utah - even with the injuries - is 11-11 in their last 22 games. I think that shows very good progress, both in terms of the individual players and in terms of the offense and defense that Quin has installed.
 
Stifle Tower said:
Sure, by all means let's sign a crappy veteran to be our "leader." Worked real well when the team was led by guys such as Watson, JLIII and Richard Jefferson. You want fire on the court? Gobert and Booker bring nastiness. You want high BBIQ from less fiery guys? That's provided by Hayward and Ingles. Leadership does not always equal loudness. How old does one need to be to have the mantle of "veteran leader" bestowed upon him? I'd say Hayward qualifies. And he initiates more of the offense than our PG's.

Do you really think a) players aren't showing enough development and b) that's Hayward's fault? Well, if Gordon gets blamed for Trey's shooting woes, then you better credit him for Gobert's amazing leap. Butler has MIP wrapped up, but Gobert is likely #2.

WE have a losing record because the Jazz brought in a new coach with new offensive and defensive schemes. Jazz also have a weak bench and have suffered injuries to their starting and backup SG's. BTW, Utah - even with the injuries - is 11-11 in their last 22 games. I think that shows very good progress, both in terms of the individual players and in terms of the offense and defense that Quin has installed.
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First of all Liunitous, I said LEADER, I said nothing about old washed up veterans like Watson, JLIII and Jefferson. Its apparent that the ones I call leaders and the ones that you call leaders and very different. Your leaders = My washed up vets.
Second of all, when did I say anything was Haywards fault?? I just said that we are paying him a leaders contact without a leaders results. As much as I would love to go back and read it to you, story time ended when I put my kids to bed. But it sounds like someone still needs his gram crackers and warm milk. Maybe you should put on your inspector gadget bifocals and read what I wrote before you throw in assumptions that any intellectual can determine what I said and what I didn't.
 
Dude, there has been huge development this year.

Beyond the wins and loss collumn, there is immense mprovement, look at our defensive #'s compared to last year.

Look at Favors. Look at Gordon. Look at Kanter. Look at Gobert. All four of those guys have shown dramatic improvements and added new facets to their games from last year.

We have two very inexperience PG's and no depth at the wing position, yet we just beat the best team in the league. This season has been nothing like last seasons. Now imagine next year with a healthy Alec, Hood, more experience Dante and team, possible addition of Neto, and a nice wing from this draft. Jazz just need to sit tight, because all the signs are saying our trajectory is up-up-up!

Then imagine the year after.
 
Kanter may start but he got the least minutes last night.

Would The Corpse of Kendrick Perkins be a decent third big (off the bench should we not keep Kanter) and leader?
 
We lose more than we win because we have 5 or 6 competent players (only hayward being the only consistent starter), and the rest are hit or miss every night (many of whom are d-league call ups or guys that would not play on other teams). You cant win consistently like that. Round out THIS team's bench, and they are a .500 club.
 
Leaders aren't usually bought, they're created organically. I'm sure The Jazz had some leadership issues in the mid eighties when Stockton/Malone were in their mid twenties.
 
Ingles has a pet kangaroo. I saw it on the Hopper Commercial. She can be the new Jazz leader as she tends to be helpful and give out great advice.
 
A. Hayward and Gobert are both developing into leaders for the future.

B. The bench sucks. It was intended to suck. If anything, Quin has overachieved with the group he has, plus struggles from Kanter/Burke, two rookies, Jingles (who I'm not sure how to quantify) and a couple of D-League call ups. Get Burks back and add more talent. . . there's some potential there.

C. Front court is solid w/ Gobert, Favors, Kanter and Booker. Wings are so-so with Hayward, even with Jingles, Hood and Millsap filling in for Burks, but the PG position has been a mess. Trey has been an inefficient chucker and Dante isn't strong enough to be well rounded offensively. Get a PG who can start (without being a negative) while Exum develops. . . and this is a totally different team.

D. Can't think of anyone I want more than Goran Dragic right now. Plug him into the starting job and let Exum and Burke battle for backup minutes. . . and this team wins a LOT more games.
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
We are not a bad team. So why do we have a losing record? We NEED a leader!!! We have some really good pieces for a foundation, but we're in need of a true leader/veteran. Our team is young and they have a lot of potential. I think that we would be a completely different team if we had 1 great leader. Someone who is respected, established, and can guide our younger talent. We are paying Hayward the money to where he should be our guy. But he's not. Don't get me wrong he's a great player but doesn't have the leadership mentality. If he did, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in and players would be showing more development than what they have been showing. My question is, do we have a future leader in the group, and all we need is few years of development?
I think its safe to say that we know what we're going to get out of Favors and Hayward. They haven't reached their peak yet, but we should be able to see what we have. If anyone, I would say Gobert is a possibility even though it will be a couple years to tell. And of course we are all hoping that Exum will work out to be the guy that one day fills that role. Again, 4 years away more than likely.
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Sounds to me like YOU need to read what you wrote. You are saying that IF Hayward were a leader, players would be further along than they are now. How is that not placing the blame on Gordon. But that's just me. Admittedly, I have a good grasp of the English language and a memory for what i wrote. Maybe YOU should switch to milk and cookies instead of the Jim Beam that causes you to upchuck such drivel and then not remember what happened when you come to the next morning.
 
Your right, I switched from Jim Beam, and moved on to Henessey tonight, at least I'm of age to buy either one. And you know what, Gordon doesn't show leadership qualities, he doesn't make other players around him better. He doesn't!!! I am not blaming him for lack of development, because that's not his job. And thats my point. Leaders make their surrounding team mates better, even though its not their prime responsibility and that why they are leaders. They go above and beyond. Hayward is not that guy, its not his fault, its just not who he is. Stop missing nap time, and waking up miserable. Please!! This is exhausting.
 
"Your right, I switched from Jim Beam, and moved on to Henessey tonight, at least I'm of age to buy either one. And you know what, Gordon doesn't show leadership qualities, he doesn't make other players around him better. He doesn't!!! I am not blaming him for lack of development, because that's not his job. And thats my point. Leaders make their surrounding team mates better, even though its not their prime responsibility and that why they are leaders. They go above and beyond. Hayward is not that guy, its not his fault, its just not who he is. Stop missing nap time, and waking up miserable. Please!! This is exhausting."

Is your argument a result of actually looking at stats, listening to a podcast of someone who has actually looked at stats, or just your own eyeball?

On his podcast, Davi Locke has addressed this issue a couple of times and has provided actual stats, which show that when Hayward is on the floor, the adjusted +/- of his fellow teammates is significantly higher than when he's not on the floor. Locke has also compared different combinations of players with and without Hayward on the floor, and finds that just about every combination looked at performs better with Hayward on the floor. I can't remember the actual stats he cited, so I'm going by memory, so while the precise details may be off, the message Locke was communicating his that Hayward, in fact, DOES make he teammates better and does so significantly.

If someone has access to these or other stats, I'd welcome seeing them.

And to forestall the inevitable debate, yes I do find Locke to be a very credible and well informed Jazz insider, but who also cites statistics when making these kind of arguments.

BUT, as far as I can remember, you are wrong.

Here's one blurb on this, not definitive, I'm sure there's more:

Hayward’s best talent is what he does for his teammates.

When Hayward was on the floor, Favors shot 54%. When Hayward was off the floor, Favors shot 46%. The same goes for almost everyone on the Jazz last year. Trey Burke’s EFG% was 46.5% with Hayward on and 39.8% with him off. The same applies to Richard Jefferson (55.6% vs. 51%), Alec Burks (50.5% vs. 47%) and Enes Kanter (50.5% vs. 46%).
 
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PKM said:
First, please name the true leaders of each team in the NBA.
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Boston - Shane Battier
Brooklyn - Shane Battier
New York - Shane Battier
Philadelphia - Shane Battier
Toronto - Shane Battier
Dallas - Shane Battier
Houston - Shane Battier
Memphis - Shane Battier
New Orleans - Shane Battier
San Antonio - Shane Battier
Chicago - Shane Battier
Cleveland - Shane Battier
Detroit - Shane Battier
Indiana - Shane Battier
Milwaukee - Shane Battier
Denver - Shane Battier
Minnesota - Shane Battier
Oklahoma City - Shane Battier
Portland - Shane Battier
Atlanta - Shane Battier
Golden State - Shane Battier
Charlotte - Shane Battier
LAC - Shane Battier
LAL - Shane Battier
Miami - Shane Battier
Orlando - Shane Battier
Phoenix - Shane Battier
Washington - Shane Battier
Sacramento - Shane Battier
 
Jazz don't have a leader since Mo Williams. That guy oozed leadership. He probably ate teh movie Spartacus for breakfast every morning.
 
I was bitching about the same thing when we had Ty. Less of a concern of mine with Quin.
 
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