The Jazz rebuild

[Stifle Tower]

First off, Sap was unrestricted and Utah had regressed as a team, which was mediocre at best to begin with. Not sure why anybody assumes we turned down the chance to keep him, rather than Sap just chose to move on. Secondly, keeping Sap would have meant no commitment to a serious rebuild, so no, it wasn't a mistake. You either agree with the strategy we're involved in or you don't. Half-assed rebuilding was the main mistake that killed our chance for a quick rebuild.

I don't necessarily disagree with a "half-assed" rebuild. We pursued that strategy after Karl and John left. Tried for a couple of FA's and failed, but didn't panic, kept the salary slots open and overpaid for two unproven players in Boozer and Okur. Then got lucky when AK and Boozer were hurt and the Jazz got the pick that became Deron. Went all the way to the WC Finals. Next "rebuild" was an attempt to keep Deron, a definite "franchise" player at the time, satisfied by bringing in Big Al. Deron was very happy with that move, even calling AJ and saying he was going to make him an all-star. But, of course, that rebuild/re-tool was not a success. Playoff appearances as a low seed, and the Deron rebellion.

I do think we could have retained Millsap, Carroll and Foye. And we'd all be bitching (or most of us, anyways) at getting swept by SA, OKC, the Clippers or any other top team. OK, maybe we win one game every other year. Or maybe we don't make the playoffs at all. It's looking like 50 wins in the WC this season to make the playoffs after Dallas needed 49 last year for the #8 seed.

I'm in on the strategy DL is using. I know some think it's not good enough. All our starters are very young and were lottery picks. Our backups, with the exception of Ingles, are all young and most were picked in the 1st round. We'll have maybe $15M or so in cap space, even if Kanter gets a QO. Jazz will have another top-8 pick. That is a LOT of talent, especially if that cap space can be used to acquire another quality player in free agency or via trade. I think it's way too early to judge Lindsey's rebuild. There are still two major pieces to add next season (high draft pick + free agent) or a trade or two involving assets we either have now or will have.

 

[freakazoid]

Where were John and Karl drafted? It didn't entail a full tank (a la Philadelphia) or Seattle/OKC and getting picks in the 1-3 range. San Antonio was a very lucky, once-in-a-generation situation. .

Good luck finding a HOF in the teens nowadays, let alone two. Scouting is a completely different animal than it was back then, and comparing those drafts to the modern draft is silly. The point of using those two teams as examples is to show how important it is to find the right players.

 

[freakazoid]

Trading Millsap was never an option. True, we didn't get anything for Jefferson. But I challenge any of you to come up with a viable trade scenario. I tried; the trading partners were limited and most would have involved taking on another year's salary. And for what? A late 1st from a contender? Those can generally be had for $3M cash, just like we got from Denver in order to draft Gobert. So take on a junk contract for pick in the late 20's or free up cap space and buy a pick or sign a better FA with that money?
.

Lol. Ever heard of Andrew Bogut? Yeah, probably not worth the effort. Trading Al and/or Sap for rebuilding pieces also would have affected the two picks we eventually traded for Trey, so holy **** yes, taking on salary for pick/s would have been way more than worth it when you look at the big picture. This crap about picks only being worth 3 mill is stupid. Utah traded 3 picks to get Deron. Stupid us for trading 9 million worth of picks for a 3 million pick. You're over-simplifying, and the asset value we effed up during the lockout is just flat-out depressing.
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Trading Millsap wasn't an option? Maybe from a fan viewpoint, but from a management viewpoint, rebuilding was an option and Sap was our best trade asset. Of course it was an option.

 

[GVC]

To hold DL's feet to the fire and criticize him for not making a blockbuster trade is disingenuous. He's had control of the team for less than 2 seasons. Up until July 2013, there was still a divide over re-signing Millsap and others or going full rebuild. Trading Millsap was never an option. True, we didn't get anything for Jefferson. But I challenge any of you to come up with a viable trade scenario. I tried; the trading partners were limited and most would have involved taking on another year's salary. And for what? A late 1st from a contender? Those can generally be had for $3M cash, just like we got from Denver in order to draft Gobert. So take on a junk contract for pick in the late 20's or free up cap space and buy a pick or sign a better FA with that money?

Hood on a rookie contract for an expiring Jefferson. Would that be a good trade? That's essentially what we got for using the Big Al salary slot and making the GS deal. And a 2017 1st from them for Paul Millsap (or vice versa). Had we taken back non-expiring contracts for either of those players, the GS deal doesn't get done.

1. You only tried creating a trade that involved a playoff team. Other teams over the cap looking to add talent or under the cap looking to re-sign a player potentially for more than his salary hold would also have valued the Bird rights that came with Jefferson/Millsap.

2. I simply don't buy that there wasn't a team out there willing to give up at least a second round pick for Al/Sap without giving up longterm salary. I've gone through the teams/cap situation, and there are several trades that can be put together. Once again, the Jazz got nothing for Al and Sap.

3. Trading Al and Sap would have hurt the quality of the team and improved their draft pick(s). You've asserted that the Jazz will not ever find a superstar via trade or free agency. If that's the case, you need to tank hard.

 

[Stifle Tower]

1. You only tried creating a trade that involved a playoff team. Other teams over the cap looking to add talent or under the cap looking to re-sign a player potentially for more than his salary hold would also have valued the Bird rights that came with Jefferson/Millsap.

2. I simply don't buy that there wasn't a team out there willing to give up at least a second round pick for Al/Sap without giving up longterm salary. I've gone through the teams/cap situation, and there are several trades that can be put together. Once again, the Jazz got nothing for Al and Sap.

3. Trading Al and Sap would have hurt the quality of the team and improved their draft pick(s). You've asserted that the Jazz will not ever find a superstar via trade or free agency. If that's the case, you need to tank hard.

Bird rights are only important if you need to sign a player for maximum number of years or money. Big Al and Millsap were UFA's. Neither were going to get Bird years or money.

Actually, I went through ALL 29 teams. There were only a few that made sense. Again, if the value of Al or Paul isn't max, then Bird rights are of zero value. No team out of playoff contention had any incentive to trade for those two...unless they were able to give Utah a longer-term deal. I'm sure we could have gotten players like Prince or Amare + a second rounder.

Again, though, almost every season a late first has been available for sale from teams at or over the cap or luxury tax (at $3M). Many "experts" have said an early second is more valuable than a late first: nearly the same talent pool (depending on the spread), but one contract is 100% guaranteed and the other has 0 guarantee. So if you "miss" in the pick, you can cut a 2nd-rounder immediately. You're stuck with that late 1st, though.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Given that it wasn't really until around the trade deadline and after, GVC, that the Jazz weren't playoff contenders that year, it would have been a complete firestorm for the Jazz to have thrown up their hands and said "we're blowing it up" and trading their best players and completely torn down the team for a couple of second round picks.

Restarting after the season was the better alternative.

 

[GVC]

Bird rights are only important if you need to sign a player for maximum number of years or money.

Uh, no. Bird rights allow you to go over the cap to sign your own player. The contract length/size isn't nearly as important.

 

[GVC]

Given that it wasn't really until around the trade deadline and after, GVC, that the Jazz weren't playoff contenders that year, it would have been a complete firestorm for the Jazz to have thrown up their hands and said "we're blowing it up" and trading their best players and completely torn down the team for a couple of second round picks.

And? I'm addressing freak and stifle. Stifle has asserted that the only way the Jazz will ever build a contender is by drafting a superstar. If that's the case, and you believe that winning a championship is the only thing that matters, you do whatever you can to get more draft picks and to better your draft position.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

What championship winning star has been drafted in the second round?

 

[GVC]

What championship winning star has been drafted in the second round?

The Jazz would also have been improving their own pick. They got nothing for letting Al and Paul walk.

Just to clarify, Darkwing, I entered this thread quoting freak stating that the FO is doing exactly what they should be doing. My main points are:

1. The Jazz are in a worse position to build a contender now than they were in the summer of 2012 when DL took over.

2. The Jazz suck right now.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Yep, I actually just logged back in to correct my mistake. So a limited market to allow teams to exceed the cap to re-sign either. However, given their salaries and the lack of interest, I would say it was a VERY small market. Millsap had virtually zero suitors until Utah made the GS deal. Then he hastily accepted the low Atlanta offer. And I don't recall a ton of teams clamoring to sign Jefferson. Charlotte was able to get him no problem.

Again, it comes down to what teams had a) players they would have been willing to trade, b) would not have had >1 year left on their contract (DL and KOC were openly opposed to taking on multiple-year deals); c) had a reason to actually do a deal. The universe was very, very small. I'd have to go back through my posts at that time, as I know I put a list in one of the trade threads. I doubt I kept the Excel sheet from that long ago.

Some of the deals had been discussed. For example, Bledsoe. But the rumor was they wanted another piece (Burks?). In hindsight, would Bledsoe at a max (or near) max salary have helped the team? Certainly. Could have had Bledsoe at PG, Hayward at SG or SF and brought in a wing to replace Burks. But that really wasn't your "all out tank." With Bledsoe on the team, I seriously doubt the Jazz get a top-10 pick.

 

[framer]

2. I simply don't buy that there wasn't a team out there willing to give up at least a second round pick for Al/Sap without giving up longterm salary. I've gone through the teams/cap situation, and there are several trades that can be put together. Once again, the Jazz got nothing for Al and Sap.

This is immaterial. The Jazz got plenty of draft picks by trading the capspace that they received by purging their payroll of Sap and Jeff to Golden State. I'm pretty certain that we wouldn't have gotten 2 unprotected firsts and 2 seconds for trading those guys at the deadline, so this was actually a win for DL. Functionally we traded AL and Paul for Hood and 3 guys we will get later. Had we traded them during the lockout year, I agree we could have possibly gotten some players back that might have been building blocks, but I kind of like the draft picks better (because I'll always take what is behind box #3)