The Jazz rebuild

[GVC]

This is immaterial. The Jazz got plenty of draft picks by trading the capspace that they received by purging their payroll of Sap and Jeff to Golden State. I'm pretty certain that we wouldn't have gotten 2 unprotected firsts and 2 seconds for trading those guys at the deadline, so this was actually a win for DL. Functionally we traded AL and Paul for Hood and 3 guys we will get later. Had we traded them during the lockout year, I agree we could have possibly gotten some players back that might have been building blocks, but I kind of like the draft picks better (because I'll always take what is behind box #3)

1. Trading Al and/or Sap wouldn't have affected their ability to pull off the GS trade if they only received players on expiring deals.
2. The Jazz also would have improved their draft pick.

 

[GVC]

Yep, I actually just logged back in to correct my mistake. So a limited market to allow teams to exceed the cap to re-sign either. However, given their salaries and the lack of interest, I would say it was a VERY small market. Millsap had virtually zero suitors until Utah made the GS deal. Then he hastily accepted the low Atlanta offer. And I don't recall a ton of teams clamoring to sign Jefferson. Charlotte was able to get him no problem.

How many teams without cap space in the summer of 2013 would have jumped at Millsap at his current salary? Bird. Rights.

 

[framer]

1. Trading Al and/or Sap wouldn't have affected their ability to pull off the GS trade if they didn't take back anything but expiring contracts.

2. The Jazz also would have improved their draft pick.

That is an awful tight needle to thread. How many teams had a need for a few month rental of those guys that also had expirings they could give up, AND had assets that we wanted?

 

[freakazoid]

Given that it wasn't really until around the trade deadline and after, GVC, that the Jazz weren't playoff contenders that year, it would have been a complete firestorm for the Jazz to have thrown up their hands and said "we're blowing it up" and trading their best players and completely torn down the team for a couple of second round picks.

Restarting after the season was the better alternative.

Sounds like you think management should cater to fans who can't see past the current season. Well, now we're seeing the results of that kind of thinking. If this was the better alternative, I'd hate to see what would have happened if we had screwed up.

 

[framer]

How many teams without cap space in the summer of 2013 would have jumped at Millsap at his current salary? Bird. Rights.

Probably not many or a deal would have been done. . .

 

[Stifle Tower]

And? I'm addressing freak and stifle. Stifle has asserted that the only way the Jazz will ever build a contender is by drafting a superstar. If that's the case, and you believe that winning a championship is the only thing that matters, you do whatever you can to get more draft picks and to better your draft position.

Didn't say that. Certainly if we never had a "superstar" but had all-star quality starters plus a talented bench, we'd be competitive. Conversely, you can have a superstar but be terrible (New York, Brooklyn). But I say the goal is to be at least competitive in the playoffs. Was it entertaining to get swept by the Lakers and miss the playoffs with our "veteran" team? Would our f ate have been any different with a team led by Millsap, Hayward, Favors and fill-in vets? That's a mid-tier team. Maybe an 8th seed, or one that gets a late lottery pick.

And as another poster has illustrated, just as many stars have been taken AFTER #1-3. Cousins, Curry, Kobe, Malone, Stockton, etc. For every Bogut, you have a Chris Paul. For every John Wall, you have a comparable star like George go lower. Or you have a Hayward go later than an Evan Turner. Jazz "tanked" by having a poor roster. They made the GS deal to acquire more picks, They did that by using the cap space available by NOT accepting longer-term salaries for Big Al. The argument re: nothing for Millsap is really moot. KOC and the Millers wanted to re-sign him. So there wasn't a chance in hell Paul would have been traded except for getting a all-star in return. And Bledsoe was the only player that came up in rumors, as I've already mentioned.

I think #3 or #4 was the absolute BEST pick the Jazz could have come up with last season. Again, Cleveland won the lottery. Milwaukee had an EPIC tank. Could we have lost more than Philly? Perhaps. So even in that scenario, do the Jazz draft an injured Embiid or Exum? They already had Favors, Gobert and Kanter. Maybe they go with Embiid or maybe they go with Exum. I tend to think they'd still have gone with Dante. Probably close in terms of ranking and Exum wins by a huge margin if you factor in position of need as a tiebreaker.

This year? Hard to imagine Utah out-tanking Philly, Detroit and maybe even New York. So again, very unlikely to get a top-3 pick. And to be honest, the talent from 4-8 looks to be nearly equal, just as it was last season. Had the Jazz drafted someone else instead of Dante, we'd be laughing at Exum's stats with Team X and be overjoyed with what Smart or Stauskas or Payton was giving us.

The rebuild will not fail because we got the #7 pick instead of the #4. It will fail if Exum is not better than Smart, or if we take Johnson over Winslow and Winslow blows up (or vice versa using any players as an example). There WILL be superstars drafted in the 4-10 spots of 2014 and 2015. There will be busts.

As for failure to rebuild before last summer, arguments are all valid. KOC was in charge and the jazz tried to "re-tool" with vets. He took a chance with Big Al (in an attempt to placate Deron), then Mo and Foye, trading for Marvin, etc. I guess if one is satisfied with just making the playoffs, that was a decent strategy. And maybe the Jazz DO find a Malone or Stockton in that 12-14 draft range when every playoff team in the WC wins 50 and they miss with 40+ wins.

 

[fishonjazz]

That is an awful tight needle to thread. How many teams had a need for a few month rental of those guys that also had expirings they could give up, AND had assets that we wanted?

This
Ya gvc, if the perfect situation was out there and the jazz passed it up then they made a mistake.

Extremely unlikely

 

[GVC]

This
Ya gvc, if the perfect situation was out there and the jazz passed it up then they made a mistake.

Extremely unlikely

Even if I accept this and/or that any other move made by DL in isolation in the last 2+ years is understandable, it still looks like:

1. The Jazz are further away (in terms of total assets) from building a contender today than they were in the summer of 2012.

2. The on-court product is ****.

Given those two conclusions, I simply can't agree that DL has done a good job thus far. While "incomplete" may be the most accurate grade for his performance, if pressed to give him an actual letter grade, there's no way I'm going above C.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

Even if I accept this and/or that any other move made by DL in isolation in the last 2+ years is understandable, it still looks like:

1. The Jazz are further away (in terms of total assets) from building a contender today than they were in the summer of 2012.

2. The on-court product is ****.

Given those two conclusions, I simply can't agree that DL has done a good job thus far. While "incomplete" may be the most accurate grade for his performance, if pressed to give him an actual letter grade, there's no way I'm going above C.

Really? GS trade? Brilliant imo. Exum? The supposed consensus top five guy who's the swing for the fence pick we all wanted. Gobert? Great so far. Hood? Solid from what we've seen and IMO I think a strong future starter. So what am I missing? Because he didn't trade Millsap and Jefferson, he's average? As if teams were knocking his socks off for them? Because of Burke who was evidently a clear Corbin's last stand pick?

 

[fishonjazz]

Even if I accept this and/or that any other move made by DL in isolation in the last 2+ years is understandable, it still looks like:

1. The Jazz are further away (in terms of total assets) from building a contender today than they were in the summer of 2012.

2. The on-court product is ****.

Given those two conclusions, I simply can't agree that DL has done a good job thus far. While "incomplete" may be the most accurate grade for his performance, if pressed to give him an actual letter grade, there's no way I'm going above C.

I can dig it.


However I dont think the on court product is ****.

I think this team has alot of talent and the future is very bright (good and multiple draft picks coming up. Young talented tradeable players. Lots of players with upside who will improve. Some cap flexibility left. Hopefully a good coach to develop the players and a good gm)

 

[Darkwing Duck]

What assets did they have in summer of 12?

No draft pick that year.

Jefferson at 14 M a year.
Millsap was expiring.

1/3 of the league projected to have cap space per this article in 2013. https://www.shamsports.com/2013/06/the-amount-of-cap-room-teams-will.html Millsap didn't move the needle that much and was signed at a shocking bargain.

Jazz had an obvious plan since the Williams trade. See if we can make the playoffs with the roster we have until 2013 when EVERYTHING but the rookie contracts are gone, then see what happens. Teams with space, likely lotto teams, weren't going to give up assets for Millsap, and trading expiring for expiring with teams with no cap is lateral movement, and the Jazz weren't taking on long term salary to jettison Millsap.

The true rebuild started in the offseason in 2013. That's where it starts. Not the '12 offseason or the '13 trade deadline. That's when Lindsay's evaluation should start. That year's draft was the trade for Burke, a good value trade. Then the cap space for picks. Then purchasing Gobert. '14 trade deadline was a wash since NO first round picks were traded and the biggest name traded was Spencer Hawes. '14 draft were obvious picks, given Exum and Hood fell from pre-draft predictions. Booker is a good value signing. Novak trade is irrelevant. Hayward match seems right choice. Burks extension looks shaky.

 

[freakazoid]

Given that it wasn't really until around the trade deadline and after, GVC, that the Jazz weren't playoff contenders that year, it would have been a complete firestorm for the Jazz to have thrown up their hands and said "we're blowing it up" and trading their best players and completely torn down the team for a couple of second round picks.

After trading Deron for rebuilding pieces, Utah could have justified going into a full rebuild, especially considering that even with Deron, that team had regressed to the point they were looking to miss the playoffs. No doubt a lot of fans would have been pissed. Just like the short-sighted GS fans that booed their FO during Mullin's jersey retirement, because they didn't like a rebuilding move that traded the present for the future. I'm pretty sure every single one of those fans would be glad their FO ignored what the fan base thought. It would have been a gamble, just like it was gamble to risk losing 2 borderline all-stars for nothing, when the odds where greatly in favor that rebuilding was inevitable. Just how much we lost on our choice of a gamble remains to be seen.