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The "Official" How many Turnovers did Trey Burke have in this game thread.

It's ok, math is optional. Hell even Archimedes did a lot of estimating.
 
Has anyone pointed out yet that low turnovers for a rookie is traditionally a sign that the rookie is already pretty close to their ceiling?

Many of the best players in the NBA were high turnover rookies because their imagination outpaced their actual skill level and they made mistakes. Later their skill level catches up.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Has anyone pointed out yet that low turnovers for a rookie is traditionally a sign that the rookie is already pretty close to their ceiling?

Many of the best players in the NBA were high turnover rookies because their imagination outpaced their actual skill level and they made mistakes. Later their skill level catches up.
Click to expand...

Nah.


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1) Most players who've played a couple years of college tend to have career-turnover numbers within 0.1-0.5 of their rookie seasons (Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan)
2) Burke hasn't been given the complete set of keys to the offense. This team's offense is still Hayward's, which keeps Burke's turnovers a little lower than your typical PG who's told to run everything on his first season.


He is a smart player, a and a superb leader with good-decision making-- and he has already shown skills that he's developed to overcome his lack of size. He will be a good point guard for many years in this league, barring injury.
 
Everybody knows teh number one valuable skill in an NBA player is imagination. Let it run wild bros.



dat jazzfanz.com mobile app doe
 
Sirkickyass said:
Has anyone pointed out yet that low turnovers for a rookie is traditionally a sign that the rookie is already pretty close to their ceiling?

Many of the best players in the NBA were high turnover rookies because their imagination outpaced their actual skill level and they made mistakes. Later their skill level catches up.
Click to expand...

Or some players just make good decisions with the ball and have good enough handles not to put themselves in bad situations. A low turnover rate seems to be an odd point of criticism. . .
 
dalamon said:
1) Most players who've played a couple years of college tend to have career-turnover numbers within 0.1-0.5 of their rookie seasons (Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan)
Click to expand...

We have a red-alert for speaking out of your ***.

This is very misleading, even for the player examples you gave. Don't focus on raw turnover per game numbers which conceal things like minutes differences and pacing differences and even team composition differences. Focus on TOV% which expresses the percentage of possessions that players ends with a turnover.

Isiah Thomas' TOV% declined from 19.2% to 16.8% for his career, with lows around 15%.

Larry Bird reduced his percentage from 14% to 12.7% for his career.

Michael Jordan's turnover percentage declined from 13.0% as a rookie to 9.3% for his career. Even MJ's per game TO numbers declined substantially.

Magic's TO% remained high (and in fairness, so did Stockton's).

Some of these differences may seem small but keep in mind that players of this caliber are using thousands of possessions per season and this represents solid improvement.

Burke's current TOV% is 9.1% which is very very low. This is the entire list of guards who manged a TOV% of 9.1% or lower in their rookie season while also playing a substantial number of games (60 or more) since the NBA began keeping track of turnovers.

1. Marcus Thornton (7.3%)
2. Quincy Pondexter (7.6%)
3. Rex Chapman (7.7%)
4. Jodie Meeks (8.1%)
5. Anthony Morrow (8.3%)
6. Eddie Jones (8.4%)
7. Randy Wittman (8.6%)
8. Eddie Robinson (8.6%)
9. Kerry Kittles (9.0%)
10. Jeff Martin (9.1%)


Of those players, only Eddie Jones both improved substantially over their rookie season and developed into an NBA player you probably actually would consider an asset (I guess the jury might still be out on Pondexter, but I doubt it).

The point is that Burke's present Turnover numbers aren't a powerful predictor of a strong NBA future.


framer said:
Or some players just make good decisions with the ball and have good enough handles not to put themselves in bad situations. A low turnover rate seems to be an odd point of criticism. . .
Click to expand...

It's not a point of criticism about the player. I'm saying this isn't necessarily a good reason to be excited about Burke's future growth. I'm telling people not to drink so much punch over this particular statistic.
 
Sirkickyass said:
We have a red-alert for speaking out of your ***.

This is very misleading, even for the player examples you gave. Don't focus on raw turnover per game numbers which conceal things like minutes differences and pacing differences and even team composition differences. Focus on TOV% which expresses the percentage of possessions that players ends with a turnover.

Isiah Thomas' TOV% declined from 19.2% to 16.8% for his career, with lows around 15%.

Larry Bird reduced his percentage from 14% to 12.7% for his career.

Michael Jordan's turnover percentage declined from 13.0% as a rookie to 9.3% for his career. Even MJ's per game TO numbers declined substantially.

Magic's TO% remained high (and in fairness, so did Stockton's).

Some of these differences may seem small but keep in mind that players of this caliber are using thousands of possessions per season and this represents solid improvement.

Burke's current TOV% is 9.1% which is very very low. This is the entire list of guards who manged a TOV% of 9.1% or lower in their rookie season while also playing a substantial number of games (60 or more) since the NBA began keeping track of turnovers.

1. Marcus Thornton (7.3%)
2. Quincy Pondexter (7.6%)
3. Rex Chapman (7.7%)
4. Jodie Meeks (8.1%)
5. Anthony Morrow (8.3%)
6. Eddie Jones (8.4%)
7. Randy Wittman (8.6%)
8. Eddie Robinson (8.6%)
9. Kerry Kittles (9.0%)
10. Jeff Martin (9.1%)


Of those players, only Eddie Jones both improved substantially over their rookie season and developed into an NBA player you probably actually would consider an asset (I guess the jury might still be out on Pondexter, but I doubt it).

The point is that Burke's present Turnover numbers aren't a powerful predictor of a strong NBA future.




It's not a point of criticism about the player. I'm saying this isn't necessarily a good reason to be excited about Burke's future growth. I'm telling people not to drink so much punch over this particular statistic.
Click to expand...

TLDR; Low TO's is bad?
 
Sirkickyass said:
We have a red-alert for speaking out of your ***.

This is very misleading, even for the player examples you gave. Don't focus on raw turnover per game numbers which conceal things like minutes differences and pacing differences and even team composition differences. Focus on TOV% which expresses the percentage of possessions that players ends with a turnover.

Isiah Thomas' TOV% declined from 19.2% to 16.8% for his career, with lows around 15%.

Larry Bird reduced his percentage from 14% to 12.7% for his career.

Michael Jordan's turnover percentage declined from 13.0% as a rookie to 9.3% for his career. Even MJ's per game TO numbers declined substantially.

Magic's TO% remained high (and in fairness, so did Stockton's).

Some of these differences may seem small but keep in mind that players of this caliber are using thousands of possessions per season and this represents solid improvement.

Burke's current TOV% is 9.1% which is very very low. This is the entire list of guards who manged a TOV% of 9.1% or lower in their rookie season while also playing a substantial number of games (60 or more) since the NBA began keeping track of turnovers.

1. Marcus Thornton (7.3%)
2. Quincy Pondexter (7.6%)
3. Rex Chapman (7.7%)
4. Jodie Meeks (8.1%)
5. Anthony Morrow (8.3%)
6. Eddie Jones (8.4%)
7. Randy Wittman (8.6%)
8. Eddie Robinson (8.6%)
9. Kerry Kittles (9.0%)
10. Jeff Martin (9.1%)


Of those players, only Eddie Jones both improved substantially over their rookie season and developed into an NBA player you probably actually would consider an asset (I guess the jury might still be out on Pondexter, but I doubt it).

The point is that Burke's present Turnover numbers aren't a powerful predictor of a strong NBA future.




It's not a point of criticism about the player. I'm saying this isn't necessarily a good reason to be excited about Burke's future growth. I'm telling people not to drink so much punch over this particular statistic.
Click to expand...

Did those players play a lot of minutes/starting role on a bad team? Just wondering.
 
Sirkickyass said:
It's not a point of criticism about the player. I'm saying this isn't necessarily a good reason to be excited about Burke's future growth. I'm telling people not to drink so much punch over this particular statistic.
Click to expand...

Ya its too bad burke isn't committing lots more turnovers per game because then we could be excited about his future

But alas, he doesn't turn it over much so he will probably suck
 
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