The Player's "STAND"

[midnight_hwy]

Just for fun, your 1995 Utah Jazz:


1 Karl Malone $3,676,000
2 John Stockton $2,800,000
3 Antoine Carr $2,525,000
4 Chris Morris $2,500,000
5 Felton Spencer $2,181,000
6 Jeff Hornacek $2,121,000
7 Adam Keefe $1,650,000
8 David Benoit $1,200,000
9 Greg Ostertag $498,000
10 Greg Foster $350,000
11 Andy Toolson $310,000
12 Bryon Russell $300,000

Total: $20,011,250
Kobe Bryant 2011: $24,806,250

That's just sad... I remember the payroll from back in that era (and earlier). I don't know if it's the owners to blame for letting it get out of hand, or the players that pushed the owners for more money, but it's amazing how much the salary has went up...

 

[TNT]

I am blown away by how many folks are siding with the players on this one. Sure the owners are greedy, but they have invested money in a business venture and want a return on investment. Meanwhile, the players play hard until they get their first big payday, and then coast the rest of their career, cashing paychecks they haven't earned since they signed their deal.

Meanwhile, the average NFL player makes about 1/7 as much and is most likely going to have permanent injuries playing in a league which generates much more revenue than the NBA.

 

[carolinajazz]

I am blown away by how many folks are siding with the players on this one. Sure the owners are greedy, but they have invested money in a business venture and want a return on investment. Meanwhile, the players play hard until they get their first big payday, and then coast the rest of their career, cashing paychecks they haven't earned since they signed their deal.

Meanwhile, the average NFL player makes about 1/7 as much and is most likely going to have permanent injuries playing in a league which generates much more revenue than the NBA.

...between me, you and a few other posters on this board, we should have plenty of ammo to destroy anyone who thinks NBA players are the "victims" in this lockout!

 

[Kingju1ce]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700147199/NBA-players-need-a-dose-of-reality.html

Check this out...a good read and I completely agree!

 

[carolinajazz]

...yes, a very nice find and good read! I'm still predicting a 12 month lockout.

 

[vslice02]

That's just sad... I remember the payroll from back in that era (and earlier). I don't know if it's the owners to blame for letting it get out of hand, or the players that pushed the owners for more money, but it's amazing how much the salary has went up...

I think the KG contract - 7 yrs for something like $120 million was the first domino, then Shaq signed a huge one w/the Lakers and spending got out of control - the pinnacle being when Jordan made $33 million during his final season with the Bulls. One decent thing the '99 lockout did (aside from the rookie scale) was place a limit on maximum salaries, but the salary cap kept rising so salaries across the board did as well. It also related salary to the number of years you played in the league, so you had teams giving max contracts to older players who were past their primes.

 

[northeast]

.....here's a typical union workers day at the docks: suppose to start work at 8 am....they start about 8:20. They take there first break at 10 am playing cards until 10:30...back to work about 10:45. Lunch starts at 12 noon, but they stop working at 11:45. Back to work at 1 pm....but they don't actually start working till 1:15. Afternoon break is 3 pm till 3:30 but they won't be back working till 3:45. There day ends at 5 pm, but they generally stop working about 4:30. They get EVERY conceiveable holiday off including "Ground Hogs Day" with full pay. If they are unloading anything and they drop it and it hits the floor, they won't pick it up. They are the biggest "Gold brickers" in the history of the American work force! I've got more first hand stories if your interested!

Can you get me a dock workers job?

 

[Sneakers]

They are the best of the best and CAN do this.

Let's put it this way. Say you were the best chef in the world, and someone came to you and said 'We are only going to pay you this much because, lets face it, being a chef isn't that important and it's plenty to live on anyway.'

You'd say... uh.. no. And go find someone to pay you a ton because you are the best.

NBA players are the best of the best. They make money, and they have the power to do this. People trying to compare them to other unions etc are, frankly, wrong. Why? Because sadly, postal workers and warehouse stockers and firemen can be replaced.

There is no one better to replace these people with.

So this just means you consider basketball ability to be worth a substantial amount of money.

The best of the best teachers make a fraction of what these guys make. Probably harder to replace too. The fact that these athletes are the 'best of the best' at doing something that provides no actual service to society aside from entertainment doesn't entitle them to enormous sums of cash in my opinion.

 

[utahquad]

I tend to look at this issue in a different way. Up front I will say that I side with the owners, but not for the reasons many would suspect. As far as I see it, the NBA is the Corporate Employer, while the NBA teams are like each business office location. Each office is responsible for its own, but at the end of the day they all report to the NBA. So that in the end makes the players the employees, just like any other employee of any other company. Yes they can belong to a union, yes they can lobby for more money, but they also need to be smarter in how they are doing this. Forcing the owners to give up more money is a joke. I would bet if any of you who work for someone else went to them and said "You are going to give me a 5 year contracted job, with pay increases of $1 million each year, plus travel, per diem, AND 54% of your profits... well your boss would have you collecting welfare faster than you can say "Huh?". Everyone says its different, based on it being sport, short careers, etc. However I do not see it that way. When a player makes 10x the money in ONE GAME that I do in an entire year, there is something seriously messed up here. If they cannot live on that, while I can live on my money, there is some serious lack of responsability there. I for one do not feel bad for any pro athlete who forces a lockout, then whines about his bentley or ferrari payment, and the mortgage on his 8 homes all over the world. These are kids who are given tons of money and no guidance how to deal with it. There have been a few exceptions to that though, players like John Stockton who kept humble and smart, saved money, drove simple cars, had just one or 2 homes, yet he could have afforded much more. I also think that Derek Fisher, the trash fish is the WORST person to be representing the players union. He used a sob story to get his way out of the Jazz, and went to a rival when he was supposedly going to go back east, he played a decent man for his emotions. He is not honest, straight up, none of that. He is a gold digging crook as far as I am concerned. If he really was going to use his daughters plight to get out of the Jazz and do it right, he would have gone to New York, New Jersey or Philly to be close to her doctors. Otherwise we DO have top notch doctors here in utah, the Huntsman Cancer Center, the Moran Eye Center and many other facilities. For those who believe he was 100% honest in what he did, you were suckered in too!

Ok my rant is done, I support the Owners and the NBA in this as they are the bosses, and the players are just employees. I would love to see the lockout happen, and then allow players to cross the line IF they want to agree themselves to the lower numbers. Whoever doesnt cross over, fill in the rest of the spots with NBADL players and undrafted players as well. I would bet you would see 2/3 of the NBA players just decide to cross and play when they realized that they could lose it all. I for one would support a Utah Jazz team made up of "replacements" just the same as I would the team with the stars. I just want to see our team play, want to make use of my season tickets that I saved so hard for. In the end the players greed only hurts one group, the fans. PERIOD!

 

[green]

we begrudge them their money, while we gladly shell out the bucks for Lady Gaga, U2, Julia Roberts, George Clooney, etc. who all make far more than NBA players? We pay them obscene amounts because we think they have unique talents. Why should it be different for athletes?

Two problems, 1- the athletes need owners to supply planes, buildings, basketball courts, lawyers to negotiate tv deals/sponsors, etc. This puts them at a serious disadvantage.

2- Honestly, if the owners started up another basketball league, locked out all the current NBA players, in 5 years you wouldn't know the difference. The athletes are a valued commodity, but the problem is, every year another player comes along and with training getting better and better, in a lot of cases, another, better player comes along.

 

[green]

I think we all need to sit back and relax and watch a few episodes of Basketball Wives.


Then instead of trying to feel sorry for either the players or the owners, we can just feel sorry for ourselves for the time we wasted.

That was really funny.

 

[green]

They are the best of the best and CAN do this.

Let's put it this way. Say you were the best chef in the world, and someone came to you and said 'We are only going to pay you this much because, lets face it, being a chef isn't that important and it's plenty to live on anyway.'

You'd say... uh.. no. And go find someone to pay you a ton because you are the best.

NBA players are the best of the best. They make money, and they have the power to do this. People trying to compare them to other unions etc are, frankly, wrong. Why? Because sadly, postal workers and warehouse stockers and firemen can be replaced.

There is no one better to replace these people with.

I don't completely agree with this. Yes, these players are the best in the world, but they are very easily replaced. Hell, we replaced Karl and John in a couple of years and have replaced their replacements with a couple of more years. There will always be another Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, etc. The players are very easily replaced. The teams might suffer for a year or two, but any worse than this last year? How many stadiums were practically empty when you watched games?

 

[northeast]

I don't believe that the NBA players are necessarily the best in the world.

The league is very biased in how it officiates the games to favor size and muscle over skill and speed.

 

[mellow]

That's just sad... I remember the payroll from back in that era (and earlier).

Thats interesting you remember. I'm just the opposite, I don't remember the salaries back in the day. I don't know what Karl got paid or Michael Jordan. Looking back, I don't remember salaries being a talking point all season long and all summer. I don't remember teams making salary dump deals, or getting draft picks to take on bad contracts, I don't remember injured players talking about the raise they were going to get in 15 months. Of course I also don't remember every square inch of the arena covered in flashing message boards with advertising, and TV timeouts every 2 and half minutes and I could watch all the games at Grandmas house on KJAZZ or KSTU or something.

Maybe all of that stuff happened back in the day, but as I look through time all I remember are my heros, and the villians and the basketball. Here's to hope that it will be about heros and basketball again someday.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Thats interesting you remember. I'm just the opposite, I don't remember the salaries back in the day. I don't know what Karl got paid or Michael Jordan. Looking back, I don't remember salaries being a talking point all season long and all summer. I don't remember teams making salary dump deals, or getting draft picks to take on bad contracts, I don't remember injured players talking about the raise they were going to get in 15 months. Of course I also don't remember every square inch of the arena covered in flashing message boards with advertising, and TV timeouts every 2 and half minutes and I could watch all the games at Grandmas house on KJAZZ or KSTU or something.

Maybe all of that stuff happened back in the day, but as I look through time all I remember are my heros, and the villians and the basketball. Here's to hope that it will be about heros and basketball again someday.

Tried to rep you mellow, but apparently I like you too much.

Let all be honest and admit that it's rare to find a business that uses over 50% of it's revenue on such a small percent of the employees.

In 2009, General Electric grossed $156.7 Billion in revenue https://www.ge.com/ar2009/pdf/ge_ar_2009_audited.pdf. Their president and CEO, Jeff Imelt, earned $5,487,155. In other words, the President of CEO grossed about .0035% of the the companies total revenue.

To compare this, the Jazz in 2010 had a total revenue of $121 million
https://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Utah-Jazz_322274.html. The Jazz, on average, spent $5.5 million on each player. So the average Jazz player walks away with roughly 4.4% of the Jazz's total yearly revenue.

If the Jazz players were paid at a percentage similar to that of the CEO and President of GE, they would make on average $423,500 per year.

I'm not saying it has to go that far, but clearly NBA salaries are out of control compared with how well the league as a whole is doing financially. Not all of the savings needs to go into the owners pocketbook either. How about we lower ticket prices and concession prices? How about we develop a better minor league system to place minor league teams in smaller markets (a better product than the NBDL)? How about the NBA increases the wages of other positions in finance, sales, marketing, HR, maintenance, etc? What does the NBAPA have to say about the families of these employees? How can they survive making $45K per year?

 

[Jazz4ever]

So this just means you consider basketball ability to be worth a substantial amount of money.

The best of the best teachers make a fraction of what these guys make. Probably harder to replace too. The fact that these athletes are the 'best of the best' at doing something that provides no actual service to society aside from entertainment doesn't entitle them to enormous sums of cash in my opinion.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you are also arguing against everything America stands for. Hu Jintao would agree with you though.

 

[carolinajazz]

Let all be honest and admit that it's rare to find a business that uses over 50% of it's revenue on such a small percent of the employees.

In 2009, General Electric grossed $156.7 Billion in revenue https://www.ge.com/ar2009/pdf/ge_ar_2009_audited.pdf. Their president and CEO, Jeff Imelt, earned $5,487,155. In other words, the President of CEO grossed about .0035% of the the companies total revenue.

To compare this, the Jazz in 2010 had a total revenue of $121 million
https://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Utah-Jazz_322274.html. The Jazz, on average, spent $5.5 million on each player. So the average Jazz player walks away with roughly 4.4% of the Jazz's total yearly revenue.

If the Jazz players were paid at a percentage similar to that of the CEO and President of GE, they would make on average $423,500 per year.

I'm not saying it has to go that far, but clearly NBA salaries are out of control compared with how well the league as a whole is doing financially. Not all of the savings needs to go into the owners pocketbook either. How about we lower ticket prices and concession prices? How about we develop a better minor league system to place minor league teams in smaller markets (a better product than the NBDL)? How about the NBA increases the wages of other positions in finance, sales, marketing, HR, maintenance, etc? What does the NBAPA have to say about the families of these employees? How can they survive making $45K per year?

...very good reasoning! You should have that posted on ESPN.com!

 

[TroutBum]

... I also think that Derek Fisher, the trash fish is the WORST person to be representing the players union. He used a sob story to get his way out of the Jazz, and went to a rival when he was supposedly going to go back east, he played a decent man for his emotions. He is not honest, straight up, none of that. He is a gold digging crook as far as I am concerned. If he really was going to use his daughters plight to get out of the Jazz and do it right, he would have gone to New York, New Jersey or Philly to be close to her doctors. Otherwise we DO have top notch doctors here in utah, the Huntsman Cancer Center, the Moran Eye Center and many other facilities. For those who believe he was 100% honest in what he did, you were suckered in too!

Wow, overreact much? FWIW, I agree with you, but man this argument/soap opera is older than the **** on Millsappa's upper lip.

Ok my rant is done, I support the Owners and the NBA in this as they are the bosses, and the players are just employees. I would love to see the lockout happen, and then allow players to cross the line IF they want to agree themselves to the lower numbers. Whoever doesnt cross over, fill in the rest of the spots with NBADL players and undrafted players as well. I would bet you would see 2/3 of the NBA players just decide to cross and play when they realized that they could lose it all. I for one would support a Utah Jazz team made up of "replacements" just the same as I would the team with the stars. I just want to see our team play, want to make use of my season tickets that I saved so hard for. In the end the players greed only hurts one group, the fans. PERIOD!

Hahaha, ya, just ask the MLB how well the 'Replacement Players' worked out. Have you ever been to a D-League game? Can you imagine cheering for that garbage 82 times a year? I shudder at the thought.

 

[carolinajazz]

They are the best of the best and CAN do this.


NBA players are the best of the best. They make money, and they have the power to do this. People trying to compare them to other unions etc are, frankly, wrong. Why? Because sadly, postal workers and warehouse stockers and firemen can be replaced.

There is no one better to replace these people with.

...you couldn't be more wrong! You try replacing fireman, postal workers, garbage men.....when they go on strike in these big cities....and see how fast total chaos throws everything into anarchy! A 3 day garbage strike in N.Y. City brings the whole city to it's knees! Make it a week.....and your just about a dead man!! Now, how long can we live without NBA basketball? How fast can NBA players be replaced by the thousands of guys ready to step in a take their places? Faster than a N.Y. minute! Besides, your also argueing that todays NBA game is enjoyable to watch and worth the big bucks to watch it. Not true at all! The game has regressed to the point of no return as far as most basketball purist are concerned. No real basketball fan watches NBA basketball. And sad to say, the product has become duluted in the College ranks as well.

 

[mellow]

Hahaha, ya, just ask the MLB how well the 'Replacement Players' worked out. Have you ever been to a D-League game? Can you imagine cheering for that garbage 82 times a year? I shudder at the thought.

I didn't know MLB used scabs, but didn't the NFL try that for a while in 1986 or '87. I was too young to see a difference in the quality, but I remember all the comentators trashing on the players. I was old enough to realize the commentators were mostly former players and I thought they were lame for harping on the short falls of the scabs. I thought the sideline stories about the scabs who were all realitivly unknown made the game more intersting. I also liked the wide open feeling. Nobody knew which team would be good--or bad.

The NBA would have a harder time with scabs, for the very same reasons that the NBA has been succesful. I mean how many games would it take for the refs to figure which players were supposed to get fouls called for them, which players were allowed to travel, double dribble, trash talk, and push off and which players were not.

I don't think the Jazz would have trouble selling 10,000 tickets to a scab game, did you ever go to the Rocky Mtn Review? Sub-par basketball but standing room only when the jazz played. I'd pay $10 to watch Britton Johnson and Stockton's son play for coach Corbin on the Jazz floor.