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The Utah Jazz and transition offense

NAOS

NAOS

Well-Known Member
This is just off the top of my head, but this is a list of players that are 'naturally' better at transition offense than the grind-it-to-Al ******** we've been watching all year long.

1. Burks
2. Hayward
3. Favors
4. Watson
5. Devin Harris
6. Jeremy Evans
7. CJ Miles

(8) Millsap is also excellent in transition... he's not on the list because he does both. I almost put (9) Tinsley on the list, because I love his court vision in transition, but he is merely serviceable in both aspects. I might as well put (9) Carroll on the list because I don't think he'll ever excel at anything else.

I'm not saying that half-court execution isn't important. It is. But a MAJORITY of our team becomes instantly better utilized when transition offense is emphasized.

Most of the time our offense looks like someone is trying to jam their foot into shoe that doesn't fit. Deal Al and get with the ****ing program.
 
The top teams in the NBA score like 20 points a game in transition. Halfcourt offense is immensely more important than transition offense. And I'm pretty sure we're in the Top 10 of transition points already.

As for Al, he's not an impediment to transition offense. No 4's and 5's are. Bigs don't typically play significant roles in transition. The points are all predominately scored by the guards.
 
billyshelby said:
The top teams in the NBA score like 20 points a game in transition. Halfcourt offense is immensely more important than transition offense. And I'm pretty sure we're in the Top 10 of transition points already.

As for Al, he's not an impediment to transition offense. No 4's and 5's are. Bigs don't typically play significant roles in transition. The points are all predominately scored by the guards.
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I really like your points, and I'm glad that you've caught up with your Tevo, but this comment doesn't really respond to the quickly written substance of my post.

Let me clarify: I think the jazz UNDER-EMPHASIZE transition offense. I don't think I need to cite a source or point to anything in particular because I find this to be generally obvious. I made a list of players whose skills are being under-utilized. I'd genuinely love to hear you talk about how the grind-it-to-Al structure is getting the most out of the players mentioned. Harris, in particular, has had is balls in a vice all year long.

Also, a 4-5 combo of Millsap and Favors results in a whole squad of deer. Run. Run. Kanter has also demonstrated a willingness to run.

I could expand on this point by mentioning how even without Al we have enough half-court offense to go around, but that is for another time...
 
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know 20 - 25 points in transition is elite. I would guess we're at least Top 10, probably somewhere between 15 and 20 points a game. Transition is not under-emphasized on the team. And even if you had Al and Favors, you couldn't gameplan to get more than 25 points a game in transition.
 
Billy, isn't it a lot higher when you include semi-transition? Spurs seem to be scoring 50-60 on the Jazz between the two. Jazz may not be hindered by AJ in transition but they're getting next to zero semi-transition buckets and that is because of Al.

I don't mind the grind through Jefferson one bit if the Jazz are willing to space the floor and run options. You can't set two groups of guys on the perimeter where all is needed is one defender per group while the other 3 crash down on Al. That's play one.

Play two is Iso Haywierd on the right side arc while everyone stands around. 12 free throws works once... kind of.

Play three: Millsap on the right block extended. Everyone stand around instead of clearing the hell out and letting Sap burn any defender Spurs put on him. Instead they stand around and allow more than adequate help d.

With that as my take away, we need to run old man Duncan into an oxygen bottle because this set offense looks like a poorly coached 3A high school club from BFE.
 
NAOS said:
This is just off the top of my head, but this is a list of players that are 'naturally' better at transition offense than the grind-it-to-Al ******** we've been watching all year long.

1. Burks
2. Hayward
3. Favors
4. Watson
5. Devin Harris
6. Jeremy Evans
7. CJ Miles

(8) Millsap is also excellent in transition... he's not on the list because he does both. I almost put (9) Tinsley on the list, because I love his court vision in transition, but he is merely serviceable in both aspects. I might as well put (9) Carroll on the list because I don't think he'll ever excel at anything else.

I'm not saying that half-court execution isn't important. It is. But a MAJORITY of our team becomes instantly better utilized when transition offense is emphasized.

Most of the time our offense looks like someone is trying to jam their foot into shoe that doesn't fit. Deal Al and get with the ****ing program.
Click to expand...

where is Howard on that list?
 
franklin said:
Billy, isn't it a lot higher when you include semi-transition? Spurs seem to be scoring 50-60 on the Jazz between the two.
Click to expand...

I was just about to type the same thing.
It's pretty amazing how the Spurs half court sets mimic transition ideas; everything parker does is going straight north to south.

anyway... what you said.
 
we also need to step up our d, forcing turnovers ---blocks, steals, or at least long misses --- to initiate this transition offense. This is something that i can see happening far more often with jefferson off of the floor and favors in his place.
 
franklin said:
Billy, isn't it a lot higher when you include semi-transition? Spurs seem to be scoring 50-60 on the Jazz between the two. Jazz may not be hindered by AJ in transition but they're getting next to zero semi-transition buckets and that is because of Al.

I don't mind the grind through Jefferson one bit if the Jazz are willing to space the floor and run options. You can't set two groups of guys on the perimeter where all is needed is one defender per group while the other 3 crash down on Al. That's play one.

Play two is Iso Haywierd on the right side arc while everyone stands around. 12 free throws works once... kind of.

Play three: Millsap on the right block extended. Everyone stand around instead of clearing the hell out and letting Sap burn any defender Spurs put on him. Instead they stand around and allow more than adequate help d.

With that as my take away, we need to run old man Duncan into an oxygen bottle because this set offense looks like a poorly coached 3A high school club from BFE.
Click to expand...

The primary difference I see between the Spurs and us in transition is they get into their offensive sets very quickly. If that's what you mean by semi-transition, then yes I'd like to see us do that. But I don't really consider that transition.

Our problems right now are totally in the half court. We're taking forever just to make the entry pass. Part of that is Pop knows we want to start every possession on the block, almost always with the same entry pass from the wing. So Diaw has made several nice plays just overplaying the entry pass. And the wing defenders are tight on Hayward/Howard because they know those guys don't want to go off script and create something (well, Howard will which doesn't work too well, and Hayward won't though I'd like to see him try a little more often.)

But again, this is halfcourt stuff. If I was Ty, I'd come out with a lot more PnR in Game 3. Anything to initiate a play without many moving parts early in the clock. I'd also try to post Hayward up against Green even though Hayward isn't a great post player. But he'll have no trouble getting the ball down on the block quickly. The main thing is, right now we're very predictable trying to run our offense.
 
billyshelby said:
The primary difference I see between the Spurs and us in transition is they get into their offensive sets very quickly. If that's what you mean by semi-transition, then yes I'd like to see us do that. But I don't really consider that transition.

Our problems right now are totally in the half court. We're taking forever just to make the entry pass.
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Uh...The Jazz can't get into their sets quickly because they're waiting for Al to get down the court. By the time he's taken his spot on the left block, the defense is set.

Once Al has established position (in the games when he chooses to...that is to say, not the last two) and an entry pass is made, Al needs a lot of time to gather himself before considering his options. This makes it difficult on cutters and shooters. About the only thing the Jazz have been able to do is stick everyone but Devin on the weak side, and hope the double comes from the top, freeing Devin up for a 3.

Of course, no one on the Jazz can set a solid off-ball screen (ugh), and Devin doesn't have a clue how to create for others by putting pressure on the D, so...
 
billyshelby said:
The primary difference I see between the Spurs and us in transition is they get into their offensive sets very quickly. If that's what you mean by semi-transition, then yes I'd like to see us do that. But I don't really consider that transition.
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I guess the term is "delayed transition" or something like that but it's not typical set offense. I'm not talking about that 4-1 set that looks like transition as NAOS pointed either.

GVC said:
Devin on the weak side, and hope the double comes from the top, freeing Devin up for a 3.
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More like Harris runs through and finds a pal to stand next to.
 
Jazz were fourth in the league in fast break points and sixth in fast break efficiency.

That's under emphasized?

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-efficiency

And no team averaged 20 points per game on the fast break. Denver was essentially 20, though. Since the site I linked started tracking fast break points, the 2004-05 season (03-04 season has odd numbers), only three teams have averaged over 20 fast break points a game. All three of them are Golden State, an amazing franchise to try to emulate.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Jazz were fourth in the league in fast break points and sixth in fast break efficiency.

That's under emphasized?

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-efficiency

And no team averaged 20 points per game on the fast break. Denver was essentially 20, though. Since the site I linked started tracking fast break points, the 2004-05 season (03-04 season has odd numbers), only three teams have averaged over 20 fast break points a game. All three of them are Golden State, an amazing franchise to try to emulate.
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What is it that you stat geeks don't get? The jazz could be #1 in the league and someone could still look down the roster and say, "by gollie damn, we can do better than that." If we haven't significantly changed the inside-out-or-bust mentality by next year, then I'll dig this thread up and show you one reason why Hayward and Burks (in particular) haven't put up the stats you dream about.

And, if you read the thread, there is something of a debate occurring about what is classified as 'transition', 'semi-transition', or 'transition-like'. I don't need to click on your links to know that those nuances aren't reflected therein.
 
*I want to emphasize transition offense MORE (ok, now shoot me)

*I want to see Favors (instead of Jefferson) barreling down the floor; and if there isn't transition opportunities, then he'll be there for a quick high-screen roll with the transition dudes running through the baseline and setting picks for Millsap and Kanter (ok, now shoot me)

*I don't want Al catching the ball on the block with 14 seconds on the clock (I know, such a controversial thing to say). Whether you want to admit it or not, that has been the meat and potatoes of the jazz's offense this year. Thinking of another year of this makes me want to become the biggest gay vegan communist evar.
 
GVC said:
Uh...The Jazz can't get into their sets quickly because they're waiting for Al to get down the court. By the time he's taken his spot on the left block, the defense is set.

Once Al has established position (in the games when he chooses to...that is to say, not the last two) and an entry pass is made, Al needs a lot of time to gather himself before considering his options. This makes it difficult on cutters and shooters. About the only thing the Jazz have been able to do is stick everyone but Devin on the weak side, and hope the double comes from the top, freeing Devin up for a 3.

Of course, no one on the Jazz can set a solid off-ball screen (ugh), and Devin doesn't have a clue how to create for others by putting pressure on the D, so...
Click to expand...

Al's speed getting down the court is not why it takes us so long to get into our sets. Both Favors and Sap are having a hard time getting set. The problem is the flex cuts and screens. The Spurs see that mousetrap before it starts, they guard it well to prevent dart passes underneath, and then overplay Al/Sap/Favors on the entry pass. And we run it like we have to, not like the weapon it's designed to be with multiple options.

We need to throw different looks at the Spurs to keep them off balance. And whatever we do, the Gospel of Game 3 should be do it faster. Get into a play by 18 seconds and we won't feel like the clock is against us every possession.
 
The thing is increasing the tempo up for scoring is not the true way against the Spurs. They the better team at this and you can not hunt them with their own weapon. This is one of the unlucky match up for the Jazz. For the transition offense, you gotta get the rebounds just net and your PG must be all aware to find the right guy. Harris is good fast break guy but Parker is master of it. Also, Spurs big men are just as good as jazz at attacking the offensive glass. The most integral part for the Utah offense is spacing. It is just pathetic to watch. Yea Al is killing us but when your PG,SG, SF not shooting at least average, your best advantage at the paint disappears too. Also you gotta watch their transition offense when you can not take the offensive boards. For Utah win, perimeter players must perform abnormally well so the big men can find place to post up and score.
 
It should be better at home. All year we played crappy in transition on the road and great at home, or at least that is what it usually felt like.
 
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