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This makes me happy.

Do you believe in the extra punishment that a felony being tagged with the moniker "hate crime" adds?

Hate crimes are directed at more people than the victims. When you abuse/neglect your child because of drugs, is the same abuse/neglect more harmful than it would have been without drugs? Note that is different from saying they would not have been neglected except for drugs.
 
I know you're afraid to say where you teach but what do you teach?

I don't think "afraid" is even close to the appropriate word. I have nothing to gain by telling you where I work, so I don't. Also, I'm a young professor that hasn't reached the tenuring phase of my career, so why take the chance that some hillbilly who thinks education is "indoctrination" sending a collection of my posts to my institution? (crazier things have happened, btw).

I teach sociocultural anthropology. My work focuses on the Caribbean. That's as close you'll get.

-nAos.
 
Crack baby's and crack whores seem to be the detriment to every libertarian argument.

Why would that be? The U.S. is not libertarian, drugs are illegal, there are millions of people in prison, yet there are still crack babies and crack whores. There would still likely be crack babies and crack whores in a libertarian society. Why would the inability to solve a problem that no other system solves mean that an idea is invalid?
 
Most Prisons are equipped with rehabilitation programs, higher education assistance, general education assistance, trade schools, counseling, etc...the problem you have is you can force inmates to go to these classes, but you can't force them to want to change their life. I've talked to plenty of people who say the "hustle" is too exciting of a lifestyle to give up. I'd be interested in hearing realistic suggestions from you and Joker as to how to fix the system by forcing hardened criminals to be open to suggestions from couselors.

It's a shame that such a large percentage of our population, per capita (in comparison to other nations), are locked up. However, instead of feeling sorry for them for being locked up I tend to feel more sorry for the victims of their crimes.

First and foremost prison would be the last resort used against people who are dangerous, period. You cannot leave prison if you are still dangerous (sure, it's hard to verify). In my opinion the justification for imprisoning a person can only be to protect the innocent from their harm. The idea that we should cause criminals pain for the sole purpose of making them suffer is not valid, in my opinion.

I would separate the prison population into two groups; those who might be rehabilitated and those who cannot be or are not worth our time to even try (child molesters, people who have gone through the program before). Those who will not be rehabilitated are there for life.

I was impressed with my boot camp experience. Those prisoners who want to earn release begin at the lowest rank. They will be very busy for at a minimum 12 hours a day. They will wake up early. They will make themselves presentable by putting on a uniform in the correct manner. They will stand in formation and be orderly. There will be a strict protocol for damn near everything they do. They will have Sunday as a day in which they can write correspondence, attended religious services, shower at their leisure, read, etc. but it would also be the only day they could iron and fold their clothes (and there would be a line for the iron), study for exams, practice required skills. Other than that their time would be controlled from the moment they woke until they crawled into bed, exhausted and anxiously awaiting their average of 5hrs of sleep a night, not to exceed 6 hrs per night.

These guys would practice drill and formation (marching), how to fold and organize their clothes, handshakes, customary greetings, etc. They’d have to get good at it.

What I’m driving at is there would not be the “you’re gonna get raped” type scene at the rehabilitationary (I don’t care if that’s not a word) prison. It’d be a high discipline environment. Good behavior would be recognized and rewarded, bad behavior would be addressed on the spot and the corrective action would contain a certain level of humiliation for the offender.

Anyone who simply wouldn’t comply spent time in a half-way prison waiting to either re-enter the rehabilitationary prison or go into permanent internment. I’d imagine for the permanent folks it would be a sort of survive or die situation. They, at that point, would be considered to be completely outside of civilization. They could face the jungle law they wished to inflict upon the rest of us. It would not be supervised other than making sure they could not escape and that they had the basic materials needed to provide for their own survival. Short of that I imagine we’d just stick with maximum security prisons. But I think the “prison island” scenario is much more just.

I think the prison boot camp should last no less than 6 months. A prisoner could potentially make it in 6 months, but it would typically take more than a year. They would have to advance through the ranks, first being a recruit, then taking recruit leadership positions and satisfactorily performing the duties of the positions they hold. Then they would have to compete for the top leadership positions among the recruits that require them to outperform other people vying for them. Their success or failure would depend on their ability to get the newest recruits onboard with the program. If they made it through all that they would enter a training program that would take place in confinement. If they did not do well in training they would potentially go back to the boot camp, or if that had been tried too many times they might go to permanent status.

Point being, if you are hurting people you will be removed from society. At that point you can either get on-board with not hurting people or you can go to the ungoverned wasteland (most likely a regular prison).

The motivation to succeed is there, imho.
 
Why would that be? The U.S. is not libertarian, drugs are illegal, there are millions of people in prison, yet there are still crack babies and crack whores. There would still likely be crack babies and crack whores in a libertarian society. Why would the inability to solve a problem that no other system solves mean that an idea is invalid?

Yes, but the idea (irrational) that they would be more prevalent scares the bejebus out of people.
 
I don't think "afraid" is even close to the appropriate word. I have nothing to gain by telling you where I work, so I don't. Also, I'm a young professor that hasn't reached the tenuring phase of my career, so why take the chance that some hillbilly who thinks education is "indoctrination" sending a collection of my posts to my institution? (crazier things have happened, btw).

I teach sociocultural anthropology. My work focuses on the Caribbean. That's as close you'll get.

-nAos.

There's a difference between teaching students to think and how to think. Based on your reaction to my posts you strike me as the latter.
 
First and foremost prison would be the last resort used against people who are dangerous, period. You cannot leave prison if you are still dangerous (sure, it's hard to verify). In my opinion the justification for imprisoning a person can only be to protect the innocent from their harm. The idea that we should cause criminals pain for the sole purpose of making them suffer is not valid, in my opinion.

What's the first resort?
Where in penal system do we cause criminals pain for any motivation?
What other reason is there to imprison someone?

I like your bootcamp idea because it keeps them busy working and disciplined, but it isn't like the military where it is an ongoing thing so what is the good of it once they are done?
 
I also believe in the right for adults to be adults. What about the rights of those kids Boondock mentioned? Do they have the right not to sleep in needle infested beds? Do they deserve to have their illnesses treated? Does a 4 year old deserve to not have to fend for itself (feed itself, bathe itself, dress itself, etc.) just because Mommy is cracked out?

Then arrest the parents for those crimes, instead of arresting them for possession of a substance. I don't care if a mother is cracked out, drunk, insane, or just an egocentric worthless person. If they are not treating their kids illnesses, feeding their child, etc. CPS should be taking them away.

I never understood the logic of "x leads to these behaviors (even though it doesn't always 100% lead to negative behaviors that I hear so much about) so we must make x illegal" when it's the behaviors it leads to that should be illegal.

For example, society has seemed to survive with alcohol being illegal even though it leads to drunk driving, domestic violence (and violence in general), addiction, and a host of other negatives. Yet we don't arrest someone for buying a bottle of Jack, we do arrest them for drunk driving, beating their wife, etc. Yet when it comes to other drugs, well, we like got to think of the children.
 
What's the first resort?
Where in penal system do we cause criminals pain for any motivation?
What other reason is there to imprison someone?

I like your bootcamp idea because it keeps them busy working and disciplined, but it isn't like the military where it is an ongoing thing so what is the good of it once they are done?

LOL... delusion
 
LOL... delusion

I have been reading this conversation very interestedly. As someone who has had some very close dealings with prisoners and the prison system in some regard, I have my own opinions about it, and I find it endlessly interesting how people think punishment should be administered, or if it should, what they think the goal of the prison system should be (rehab? punishment? "time-out") and how to accomplish those goals.

I think sapa raises a good point. One of the biggest concerns of law enforcement, and those within the prison system, and I think it should be a concern to all of us, is the rate of recidivism.

Joker do you have an answer rather than a snyde one-liner?
 
I have been reading this conversation very interestedly. As someone who has had some very close dealings with prisoners and the prison system in some regard, I have my own opinions about it, and I find it endlessly interesting how people think punishment should be administered, or if it should, what they think the goal of the prison system should be (rehab? punishment? "time-out") and how to accomplish those goals.

I think sapa raises a good point. One of the biggest concerns of law enforcement, and those within the prison system, and I think it should be a concern to all of us, is the rate of recidivism.

Joker do you have an answer rather than a snyde one-liner?

Nope, I just believe the current system is messed up, and so is anyone anyone who defends it. The "I'm gonna send you away for 10 years of rape and boredom" system is not an effective and efficient form of behavioral reform. We should be focused on bringing balance to broken people's lives rather than sending them away to "rape and boredom" camp, and I'll say that most prisoners are not broken, just victims of a broken system. This gives them at least a smidgen of hope for their future,and benefits both parties.



I called Milsappa delusional because she's convinced hard punishment and causing someone some form of pain is a good solution... where one, at least in my opinion, it violates the 8th amendment, and two, it produces almost no good results whatsoever, when there are lot of other more efficient, cheaper, and effective methods.

Now may I go back to snide one liners .
 
Nope, I just believe the current system is messed up, and so is anyone anyone who defends it. The "I'm gonna send you away for 10 years of rape and boredom" system is not an effective and efficient form of behavioral reform. We should be focused on bringing balance to broken people's lives rather than sending them away to "rape and boredom" camp, and I'll say that most prisoners are not broken, just victims of a broken system. This gives them at least a smidgen of hope for their future,and benefits both parties.



I called Milsappa delusional because she's convinced hard punishment and causing someone some form of pain is a good solution... where one, at least in my opinion, it violates the 8th amendment, and two, it produces almost no good results whatsoever, when there are lot of other more efficient, cheaper, and effective methods.

Now may I go back to snide one liners .

Out of curiosity, how do you know that most prisoners aren't "broken"? Do you have any personal experience with any?
 
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