Thread for conceding you’ve been wrong about something.

[Douchebag K]

Reading the political and social threads here is so depressing. Almost every single person as a reflex sees issues from their “side”. Pretty much the only person I see who reasonably regularly concedes points from someone who he would generally oppose is One Brow. Otherwise it’s such bitter division and polarisation.

So … who can post something political or social that they have changed their mind about, or agree on something that someone from the opposite wing of politics or the social spectrum has said. Let’s hear something others than “we’re good, they’re bad” …. ???

 

[One Brow]

There have been so many things I've learned over years from arguing against you, @Gameface , @LogGrad98 , @Bucknutz , @Jazz Spazz , @RandyForRubio , @Al-O-Meter , etc., that I could not begin to list them all. There is only current poster that I have not learned anything from, and even he is correct some of the time.

 

[MT Steve]

There have been so many things I've learned over years from arguing against you, @Gameface , @LogGrad98 , @Bucknutz , @Jazz Spazz , @RandyForRubio , @Al-O-Meter , etc., that I could not begin to list them all. There is only current poster that I have not learned anything from, and even he is correct some of the time.

Aw thanks

 

[Keefe]

Anyone who is married can admit it here. Never to the wife. Ever! But this is your safe space.

 

[JazzGal]

Considering that in the past twelve years I have completely revised my opinions about most social, political, religious, racial issues, I am absolutely capable of change in thought. And back in earlier Jazzfanz days, there were many who helped me break away from the ideas in which I had been raised.

Being exposed to people here who were outside the bubble that had been my real life was critical to becoming the person I am today.

But I can't tell you specifics because I'm old and forgetful.

 

[LogGrad98]

I've changed my attitudes about a lot of things over the years. For one, abortion. I still feel we are missing the mark on what makes a human being and when it is worth of rights as a human being, but with the lack of scientific consensus or even any other consensus about it, I feel it's the height of arrogance to think I know better than any woman facing that decision. Let them make the best decision they can without resorting to back street abortions or bringing unwanted kids into the world. I still think carrying to term is better, I was adopted after all and I have several friends who have adopted and who are still waiting to, so there is demand there, but until we know for a fact when that fetus is really a thinking feeling human, it's just not my place to make that decision.

I still disagree fundamentally with OB about the nature of the relationship between the mother and the fetus, but that's largely a chicken and egg type of discussion anyway with no real clear answer. So just let the women have the safe option if that's what they feel is best for them.

 

[Rubashov]

 

[gandalfe]

The death penalty. I used to think that there were cases where it was appropriate and justified - maybe it was overused, but still there were times when it was the right thing for society to do. In debates, however, I came to realize more and more that I could not justify that position. It doesn't serve as a deterrant, and there's obviously no rehabilitative aspect to it, so that only leaves punishment, eye-for-an-eye style, and that's just barbaric. Couple that with the knowledge that we have actually put to death people who have been exonerated afterwards, or even during the process, but the legal system has failed to consider it, and I can no longer think that it's right under any circumstance.

 

[LogGrad98]

The death penalty. I used to think that there were cases where it was appropriate and justified - maybe it was overused, but still there were times when it was the right thing for society to do. In debates, however, I came to realize more and more that I could not justify that position. It doesn't serve as a deterrant, and there's obviously no rehabilitative aspect to it, so that only leaves punishment, eye-for-an-eye style, and that's just barbaric. Couple that with the knowledge that we have actually put to death people who have been exonerated afterwards, or even during the process, but the legal system has failed to consider it, and I can no longer think that it's right under any circumstance.

We differ here. I'm a bigger fan of the death penalty than I've ever been. Of course I'm a much stronger nihilist now than I ever was before and I firmly believe that to save the planet, if anyone cares about that, we need to eliminate the virus of humanity. So anything that reduces the viral load is a good thing. But saving the planet aside, I am in favor of the death penalty for a few reasons. One is a stronger sense of justice and finality for certain crimes that show society won't tolerate it, whether it's a statistical deterrent or not, and another is for closure for those wronged. The only issue I have with it is it takes too damn long to carry out. Give them their appeals then just do it. None of this 3 decades on death row ****. Just get it done.

 

[fishonjazz]

I find it strange that people try to avoid the death penalty in favor of life in prison. If you were to let me pick from those 2 options I would pick the death penalty without hesitation.

 

[Gameface]

I find it strange that people try to avoid the death penalty in favor of life in prison. If you were to let me pick from those 2 options I would pick the death penalty without hesitation.

I wouldn't. You can live a sort of life in prison. Read, socialize, maybe write that book I've been thinking about, etc.. For me I want to live a long time so I can see things like the first people to permanently live somewhere besides Earth, possibly find extraterrestrial life, Jazz win a championship, the conquest of our AI overlords, Trump dies. Stuff like that.

 

[Gameface]

The death penalty. I used to think that there were cases where it was appropriate and justified - maybe it was overused, but still there were times when it was the right thing for society to do. In debates, however, I came to realize more and more that I could not justify that position. It doesn't serve as a deterrant, and there's obviously no rehabilitative aspect to it, so that only leaves punishment, eye-for-an-eye style, and that's just barbaric. Couple that with the knowledge that we have actually put to death people who have been exonerated afterwards, or even during the process, but the legal system has failed to consider it, and I can no longer think that it's right under any circumstance.

I also take the position that killing people who are at our mercy is bad for us. Not just the ones administering the drugs, or flipping the switch or pulling the trigger, but as a society we kill helpless people and I think that degrades us. I don't want to be a killer and don't take joy in the killing of a person even if they deserve it. I do think that some people deserve to die, I just don't want to sign off on killing them when they pose no threat to anyone anymore.

 

[LogGrad98]

I also take the position that killing people who are at our mercy is bad for us. Not just the ones administering the drugs, or flipping the switch or pulling the trigger, but as a society we kill helpless people and I think that degrades us. I don't want to be a killer and don't take joy in the killing of a person even if they deserve it. I do think that some people deserve to die, I just don't want to sign off on killing them when they pose no threat to anyone anymore.

Sometimes their very existence poses a threat, or are allowed to continue to cause havoc and damage and put even the guards at risk.

During his decades in prison, Charles Manson has repeatedly broken rules, caused trouble

During his more than four decades behind bars, convicted murderer Charles Manson — the mastermind behind a gory 1969 Los Angeles killing rampage — has been an unrepentant and incorrigible inmate, repeatedly cited for behavioral problems including hiding cellphones and a hacksaw in his cell.

www.latimes.com

It would have been better for all involved if Manson would have been executed. I can see both sides in this but I feel the death penalty is warranted whether they are helpless or not. Sharon Tate was helpless that night, as was her baby. I can see the argument that it brings us down to his level to mete out the same fate he meted to Tate, but on the flip side, Tate did nothing to deserve it, and Manson did. Completely different set of circumstances. Now, if we start executing people who have done nothing to deserve it then we are entering Nazi territory, so that would be of course horrifying and bad. But I feel the death penalty is warranted in some case, and should be carried out with, maybe not alacrity but least with expediency.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I also take the position that killing people who are at our mercy is bad for us. Not just the ones administering the drugs, or flipping the switch or pulling the trigger, but as a society we kill helpless people and I think that degrades us.

So abortion is wrong.

 

[fishonjazz]

I wouldn't. You can live a sort of life in prison. Read, socialize, maybe write that book I've been thinking about, etc.. For me I want to live a long time so I can see things like the first people to permanently live somewhere besides Earth, possibly find extraterrestrial life, Jazz win a championship, the conquest of our AI overlords, Trump dies. Stuff like that.

Ya for me, prison would suck too bad. I would be miserable. Spending time with other miserable people (who also happen to be murderers and rapists and whatnot). If i know im going to be miserable for like 40 years in a row then I would rather just take a long nap.

 

[One Brow]

So abortion is wrong.

Yes. Slavery is also wrong, and I support a woman's refusal to be enslaved by a fetus.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Yes. Slavery is also wrong, and I support a woman's refusal to be enslaved by a fetus.

...with the penalty being capital punishment without due process.

 

[One Brow]

...with the penalty being capital punishment without due process.

Any slave is entitled to take the life of the one trying to be its master. It's justifiable homicide.

At this point, I will not comment further on abortion in this thread. I apologize to @Douchebag K for my part in this derailment.

 

[Douchebag K]

I find it strange that people try to avoid the death penalty in favor of life in prison. If you were to let me pick from those 2 options I would pick the death penalty without hesitation.

i've defn changed over the years, i was vehemently against it for a long time but now in certain cases i'm ok about it

 

[gandalfe]

Now, if we start executing people who have done nothing to deserve it then we are entering Nazi territory, so that would be of course horrifying and bad. But I feel the death penalty is warranted in some case, and should be carried out with, maybe not alacrity but least with expediency.

The Death Penalty Information Center (admitted not an unbiased source) has found that at least 190 people have been wrongly sentenced to death since 1973. Of those, some have been exonerated prior to execution, but they list 20 who were executed who had, at least, strong reasons to suspect they were innocent. How many innocent people should be executed before we stop?

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence