Trade deadline discussion

[framer]

Wild to me that the same people who bust their nut over Shaq Harrison hate on Trent Forrest.

How don't other people see this?

 

[KqWIN]

I honestly just want someone else to play because I can't stand watching Forrest play basketball,. He pounds the ball and grinds the offense to a halt. He has similar time of possession/touch time to Conley and Mitchell, but he's producing a whopping 6/3.5 per36 minutes. Not to be the Oni guy again, but at least when Oni played he stayed out of the way. It's one thing to do nothing and stand in the corner, another to hijack the offense and eat the shotclock while doing nothing. That's also the reason why Oni's lineups were so much better than Forrest's are.

The main purpose of this role is to take some minutes/burden off of Conley/Joe. I get it...but I don't see the reason to use Forrest over Butler or really any of the other young players tbh. He's not having a ton of success holding down the fort, and he's got the least amount of playoff potential.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

How don't other people see this?

I think mostly cuz its not true. I heard Locke going on about how he's our GP2 and writing a limerick for his 4 rebound 2 assist performance last night.

He's fine... he's not as disruptive as Shaq or GP2 and he's a negative offensive player and trending the wrong direction. Being a bad shooter will hurt the team... but not nearly as much as being a complete non-shooter. When Jock Londale is the defensive anchor it isn't a big issue and we will score still, but there are times when his guy is playing completely off of him and when the ball comes his way it becomes a turnover or drive to nowhere. Just won't cut it versus real competition.

And again... we didn't make time to even give Shaq time... if we did and had a prospect like Butler sitting there... I'd likely have an issue.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I honestly just want someone else to play because I can't stand watching Forrest play basketball,. He pounds the ball and grinds the offense to a halt. He has similar time of possession/touch time to Conley and Mitchell, but he's producing a whopping 6/3.5 per36 minutes. Not to be the Oni guy again, but at least when Oni played he stayed out of the way. It's one thing to do nothing and stand in the corner, another to hijack the offense and eat the shotclock while doing nothing. That's also the reason why Oni's lineups were so much better than Forrest's are.

The main purpose of this role is to take some minutes/burden off of Conley/Joe. I get it...but I don't see the reason to use Forrest over Butler or really any of the other young players tbh. He's not having a ton of success holding down the fort, and he's got the least amount of playoff potential.

This is basically it... and it isn't trending the right way. The other guys that folks like to compare him to get twice the amount of steals and deflections and Forrest gets twice the amount of turnovers of those guys. The turnovers aren't really even trying to do stuff... its a palming call or getting picked clean and the guy going the other way. This stuff will get worse the more he gets scouted. Hopefully we don't need him in the playoffs but if we do he's toast.

Most of our perimeter defenders are terrible so Forrest does look good in comparison. Its why in college I tried to make sure my friends were ugly. It is an effective strategy.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I think mostly cuz its not true. I heard Locke going on about how he's our GP2 and writing a limerick for his 4 rebound 2 assist performance last night.

He's fine... he's not as disruptive as Shaq or GP2 and he's a negative offensive player and trending the wrong direction. Being a bad shooter will hurt the team... but not nearly as much as being a complete non-shooter. When Jock Londale is the defensive anchor it isn't a big issue and we will score still, but there are times when his guy is playing completely off of him and when the ball comes his way it becomes a turnover or drive to nowhere. Just won't cut it versus real competition.

And again... we didn't make time to even give Shaq time... if we did and had a prospect like Butler sitting there... I'd likely have an issue.

Forrest might not be as disruptive as other players, but his effect on our defense has been huge. For example his defensive rating this year is a 97.7, GPII is a 96.8 playing with much better defenders. I get why the coaching staff is high on him, and he potentially gives us a lot of what we really need. He's also young and has room to be even better as a defender.

I am in the boat of wanting to see what Butler can do as well. I think he deserves another chance with rotation players. I'm hopeful he's learned the offense a little better and looks more comfortable. Butler is still our best prospect in a long time, and it would be crappy if we screw that up. I just don't think we have to hate on Forrest to make that argument.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Forrest might not be as disruptive as other players, but his effect on our defense has been huge. For example his defensive rating this year is a 97.7, GPII is a 96.8 playing with much better defenders. I get why the coaching staff is high on him, and he potentially gives us a lot of what we really need. He's also young and has room to be even better as a defender.

I am in the boat of wanting to see what Butler can do as well. I think he deserves another chance with rotation players. I'm hopeful he's learned the offense a little better and looks more comfortable. Butler is still our best prospect in a long time, and it would be crappy if we screw that up. I just don't think we have to hate on Forrest to make that argument.

Defensive Rating is tough to use... for instance Kevin Love has a 101 drtg and Draymond Green has a 99.... I prefer on/off stuff to drtg... steals, deflections, blocks are all important too... some can be misleading of course. GP2 makes the leagues best defensive team 5 pts per 100 possessions better than they are without him. They are also better with him on the court offensively. He's tops of the league in steals and deflections... he is likely the cause for them being better.

The team is better on defense with Forrest in the game. He also has a lot more garbage time in his minutes than a guy like GP2, but the offensive difference with Forrest is a -8.3 per 100... So that is where things get ugly.... and if wasn't the case earlier in the season but has been trending horribly the last month. The bench defense is solid.... and not because of Trent... its because of Whiteside and the fact that Bojan and Donovan are off the floor.

Forrest is a solid defender... he's an atrocious offensive player. He's regular season minute filler, which is fine... if you don't have something more interesting waiting in the wings.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Defensive Rating is tough to use... for instance Kevin Love has a 101 drtg and Draymond Green has a 99.... I prefer on/off stuff to drtg... steals, deflections, blocks are all important too... some can be misleading of course. GP2 makes the leagues best defensive team 5 pts per 100 possessions better than they are without him. They are also better with him on the court offensively. He's tops of the league in steals and deflections... he is likely the cause for them being better.

The team is better on defense with Forrest in the game. He also has a lot more garbage time in his minutes than a guy like GP2, but the offensive difference with Forrest is a -8.3 per 100... So that is where things get ugly.... and if wasn't the case earlier in the season but has been trending horribly the last month. The bench defense is solid.... and not because of Trent... its because of Whiteside and the fact that Bojan and Donovan are off the floor.

Forrest is a solid defender... he's an atrocious offensive player. He's regular season minute filler, which is fine... if you don't have something more interesting waiting in the wings.

The garbage time actually hurts Forrest advanced numbers because the garbage time lineups have played terribly.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

 

[KqWIN]

Forrest might not be as disruptive as other players, but his effect on our defense has been huge. For example his defensive rating this year is a 97.7, GPII is a 96.8 playing with much better defenders. I get why the coaching staff is high on him, and he potentially gives us a lot of what we really need. He's also young and has room to be even better as a defender.

I am in the boat of wanting to see what Butler can do as well. I think he deserves another chance with rotation players. I'm hopeful he's learned the offense a little better and looks more comfortable. Butler is still our best prospect in a long time, and it would be crappy if we screw that up. I just don't think we have to hate on Forrest to make that argument.

Eh...the numbers are always going to be somewhat misleading in this role. They only come in the context of our super bench lineup. If you only play in that lineup, those numbers are going to be amazing. It's why Oni was a +20 per100. Oni wasn't a superhuman player, he just happened to only play in maybe the best relative lineup in the league. I think it should be more alarming that Forrest filling in the same lineups is not nearly as successful. It's also misleading because a lot of the minutes are going to be in garbage time, which could really throw things off. For example, the gap between GP2 and Forrest is much bigger when you filter out garbage time.

The Jazz do need a defender, but it can't come at the cost of completely destroying the offense. It's why I am more hopeful of Oni. Standing in the corner doing nothing and shooting 35% will not destroy the offense. Dominating the ball for large amounts of time while also doing nothing will actually destroy the offense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The garbage time actually hurts Forrest advanced numbers because the garbage time lineups have played terribly.

Maybe… unless you actually see the numbers you don’t know for sure. It seems most of his made baskets also come in games where there is garbage time… so the sword cuts both ways.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If we had Yuta I’d be clamoring for him to play over Forrest too.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Maybe… unless you actually see the numbers you don’t know for sure. It seems most of his made baskets also come in games where there is garbage time… so the sword cuts both ways.

They are on basketballreference.