Trade Gordo + Trey for the #3?

[fishonjazz]

Boston averaged a little over 100 possessions a game. We averaged 93, which is piss poor btw. I'm in a tractor in a field right now, so I can't look it up, but I think the best statistical comparison for them would be 100 POS and not per40 or per36. Evens out the pacing a little bit.

I figured that would be the case (faster pace). Those kinds of stats are over my head.
There are probably also stats about which player had more assisted baskets and who had more open looks and who had more layups.

Simply looking at the per game stats though they appear to be very similar statistically (almost identical %/efficiency wise) with thomas stats appearing to be a tiny bit better to me. (His salary is much better)

Certainly doesn't seem to be a wide gap between to the two players though. At least not as wide as burke to crowder or 12 to 3.

Put aside that trade for a second though.
Man the jazz could certainly use an all star or near all star level point guard who bends defenses and is only under contract for two extremely cheap years. (By that time exum should be totally ready to take over)

I wonder if the Celtics would want a package of something else that we could offer besides hayward? Probably not. Hayward is almost certainly our most desired player (unless his looming contract scares teams)

 

[franklin]

This part of your post might all be true and I think you have a really good basketball mind so I lean towards agreeing with you.

It is speculation though. I could speculate that Thomas and favors would be amazing in the pick n roll (Maybe quin changes his offense to utilize Thomas skills) and Thomas would score less, but more efficiently, and get more assists and turn favors into an all star. His dribble penetration would be great to get hood and lyles great looks from three and defenders would have to leave rudy to defend Thomas drive game allowing rudy to get lots of offensive rebound put backs (dribble penetration has been lacking in the jazz offense imo).

I could speculate that favors is better than griffin cause he is the much better defender and if he had a point guard like cp3 his offensive game would take off.

It's hard to say what any player would do on any other team.

I do trust you opinion to be a good one though and maybe hayward on Boston would be averaging 25 points and 7 assists and be an all star leading his team to the playoffs (I think the latter two are actually very likely)

Hornacek very effectively used a pick or double picks and dive behind the basket scenario with bigs who couldn't score well like Gobert. I think semi-defensive small ball could work well with Gobert and Favors (Favors-Hayward-Gobert the defenders and Ish and another gunner the pushers).

Strike what I said about the 100/pos. I was wrong. Maybe a better one would be pace adjusted per36/40.
[MENTION=578]franklin[/MENTION], you're better with statistics than me. Any thoughts from your non-trolling persona.

/practically none of us know basketball like Frank does

I am not very good with stats but thanks a lot for the compliment. I have my favored measures. I think ts% is the best measure of an offensive player when measured against volume. Thomas is good at .562. Hayward is good at .559.

What I do know is we could have had Thomas for next to nothing and DL fumbled the football. This talk of trading a ton of assets for him irks me.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would assume that since hayward and Thomas are so similar in their shooting, three point, efg, ts, etc that their offensive numbers would be pretty similar no matter how you broke it down (The stats seem to indicate Thomas is slightly better offensively, but maybe that is due to having a better coach)

Defensively is where I would expect Hayward to outshine Thomas significantly statistically. I don't really know what defensive stats to use though or how to find them.

Then again I just assume Thomas is a poor defender mainly due to his size. Maybe he is better than I think he is defensively.

 

[mellow]

LockedonJazz talking about if the Jazz should go for the #2 pick this draft and Bradley Beal. Didn't listen myself but for those interested...

I just listened to yesterday's Locke appearance on Monsoon & Checkouts. Locke says that Jazz could trade Hayward and probably Favors and reset the re-build around Exum, Rodney, Lyles and Gobert, or try to build around current core and add pieces. Huge decisions for Jazz this summer.

Also, said Jazz believe one of Simmons/Ingram could be as great as Durant. But wouldn't give up which one of the two mates it was.

He asked a rhetorical question-if you thought one of those two would be Kevin Durrant, would you give up Hayward to get him? Then answering his own question "yes".

Interesting stuff. Lindsey is gonna earn his paycheck the next few weeks with the decisions he will have to make.

 

[Stoked]

I just listened to yesterday's Locke appearance on Monsoon & Checkouts. Locke says that Jazz could trade Hayward and probably Favors and reset the re-build around Exum, Rodney, Lyles and Gobert, or try to build around current core and add pieces. Huge decisions for Jazz this summer.

Also, said Jazz believe one of Simmons/Ingram could be as great as Durant. But wouldn't give up which one of the two mates it was.

He asked a rhetorical question-if you thought one of those two would be Kevin Durrant, would you give up Hayward to get him? Then answering his own question "yes".

Interesting stuff. Lindsey is gonna earn his paycheck the next few weeks with the decisions he will have to make.

If you truly believe that one of them will be a superstar on the level of Durant than not giving up Hayward is idiotically bad. Hayward, 2016 1st, Favors, Burks, half dozen second rounders, date with my wife and the OKC and GSW first.

 

[fishonjazz]

I just listened to yesterday's Locke appearance on Monsoon & Checkouts. Locke says that Jazz could trade Hayward and probably Favors and reset the re-build around Exum, Rodney, Lyles and Gobert, or try to build around current core and add pieces. Huge decisions for Jazz this summer.

Also, said Jazz believe one of Simmons/Ingram could be as great as Durant. But wouldn't give up which one of the two mates it was.

He asked a rhetorical question-if you thought one of those two would be Kevin Durrant, would you give up Hayward to get him? Then answering his own question "yes".

Interesting stuff. Lindsey is gonna earn his paycheck the next few weeks with the decisions he will have to make.

Funny, I was going to pose the question... If dl believes there is a true star at 3 and traded hayward for the #3 pick and nothing more then he would get murdered by the fans and media I'm certain. (I know I would crucify him) everyone would talk of how it was just a money saving move.

But wouldn't we really want him to make that trade if he thought he was going to get a star player?


I also wonder, would DL have the balls to piss everyone off doing a trade like that?

 

[Shad]

One other thing that seems to be lost in all this talk is the uniqueness of Dante. Please name for me all the PG's in NBA history that are 6'6", amazingly quick and showed to be a top level defensive player in their rookie season at PG.

That list is very short.

You forgot to mention only averaged 4 points a game in his only season. The majority of people are a shell of themselves after a knee surgery (Rose anyone?). Not that Exum can't be better obviously from 4 points a game, but this team really isn't good.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Well the Sixers aren't going to trade, and neither will the Lakers, so the Ingram/Simmons talk is irrelevant. After those two, huge drop off. There isn't a star player there.

 

[FalseFlagg K]

If you truly believe that one of them will be a superstar on the level of Durant than not giving up Hayward is idiotically bad. Hayward, 2016 1st, Favors, Burks, half dozen second rounders, date with my wife and the OKC and GSW first.

would she put out tho ?

 

[Deleted member 848]

I gotta agree on that front-- imagine if we traded for Isaiah Thomas. Dang.


I still remember a thread by GVC about how we should go for him back when he was with the Kings

 

[Deleted member 848]

I'm too lazy to quote people, but Hayward isn't just a bit better than IT, he's easily a tier or two (more likely the latter) above IT. Hayward is one of the rare wing players who can score efficiently, create well, and defend at an above average rate. Trading him would be a mistake. Letting him leave would be a mistake.

Second, I love Crowder, but he's overrated right now. Brad Stevens is one of the best offensive coaches in the league. Quin is not. So these guys numbers are a bit inflated IMO, kinda like how role players under Jerry always regressed under other teams.

Third, IT is a good player, in his role. He's a 6th man, scoring option. But he doesn't play defense. In rare circumstances you can do alright with that kind of player, like Boston did, but they just did alright. Never will you have a contending team with a player like that unless you have a LeBron, Durant, type of player around him.

In short, we're overvaluing Boston players because of Brad Stevens, and undervaluing Gordon Hayward, who is really freaking good, because Quin is an awful offensive coach so far.

10/10 post

 

[fishonjazz]

Well the Sixers aren't going to trade, and neither will the Lakers, so the Ingram/Simmons talk is irrelevant. After those two, huge drop off. There isn't a star player there.

This is a common opinon right now (about there being no stars after #2) and I agree with you but there are always diamonds in the rough.

Derozan drafted #9, curry #7, cousins #5, Hayward #9, George #10, Butler #30, giannis #15, dirk #9, leonard #15, lillard #6.

If the jazz truly believe that someone not named simmons or ingram will be a star in this draft and they don't think that player lasts until 12 then I hope they try to trade up to get that player.

Point is there are almost always star players that no one saw coming so to say there are no stars after #2 I think is probably inaccurate.