Trade ideas

[HermanG]

If he can’t get touches in this rat team then I don’t know who’s going to give him enough touches. His three point shooting was absolutely 100% his best chance to change his value and that part has been good. Not having PnR ball handlers or a spaced floor can explain some of his other regression pretty easily.

Bear down @Saint Cy of JFC there is an analogy coming later.

He cant get touches because most of the ones who initially possess the ball arent finding hay from a haystack.

I mean what is he supposed to do? Bring the ball up the court?

Besides, Collins is as much of a black hole play finisher than Lauri. One of my least favorite things avout him.

 

[HermanG]

The idea of keeping Collins to squeeze out a modicum of positive value in return relative to what we gave up is the textbook definition of sunk-cost, even if that sunk cost was just opportunity. Well, that and $80M.

The idea is not to squeeze out value. The idea is that he can become a positive piece in the long run, and even if thats not the case the right time to trade him is not now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

 

[HermanG]

Either way, does nothing for his trade value. The problem with the Jazz being in this flipping assets mode is that we are not a team that showcases talent and makes players look better than they are. We are the team that makes everyone look worse.

And this is exactly why Collins wont be traded. No one comes calling for him, and dumping him ala Favors is not an option for any bad team (besides he isnt harmful or toxic or anything).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He cant get touches because most of the ones who initially possess the ball arent finding hay from a haystack.

I mean what is he supposed to do? Bring the ball up the court?

Besides, Collins is as much of a black hole play finisher than Lauri. One of my least favorite things avout him.

Yes I understand this... I understood this the day of the trade... it won't change. He could have his value tick up a smidge if we had better PnR ball handlers but at this point we'd have to move 2 of JC/THT/Sexton and ask Key to take a bit of a backseat to let a mid vet be more prominent.

It was just a bad move. While the transaction cost was Rudy Gay and a second we are ignoring the amount of "dead money" Collins has on his deal. I'd say he is worse than a guy like Naz Reid by a substantial margin. So there is easily 25-30M in dead money there... and we gave like 6-7M in dead money in Gay... I think we got ripped off.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And this is exactly why Collins wont be traded. No one comes calling for him, and dumping him ala Favors is not an option for any bad team (besides he isnt harmful or toxic or anything).

He could be moved but its for guys like Lonzo, Adams/Clarke - who are not playing and on big deals. He could also be moved in the Zach Lavine (our problem for your problem) type scenario.

We have no urgency to move him I will agree there. KO/THT/JC are all more likely to be moved. Tech maybe but he doesn't have a history of performing so may not yield something worthwhile... and he may re-sign at a bargain deal. I wouldn't move him for a crappy second... maybe a couple good seconds but I'm convinced he's actually an NBA rotation wing.

 

[HermanG]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

I agree about most of this.

Maybe the guy bought the house because he wants to live there when the kids grow up, but it was premature cause they were toddlers at that point.

Collins next contract starts at age 28, the supposed beginning of NBA prime. And it projects to be much cheaper. Glow ups are not out of the question either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Analogy for @infection to enjoy and @Saint Cy of JFC to hate and not understand.

John Collins is the nice house you bought for too much money. You wanted the house... its a nice house but you rushed into it thinking there wouldn't be much of an opportunity to buy something similar later at a better value. Its fine if you live in it and you don't "realize" the loss... and it is a nice house but you start to look around and think about what are the other costs of paying too much for the house. It'd be nice to take more and better vacations... but the house payment is a bit much for that. "oh look at that investment opportunity... crap... I don't have the money for it cuz the house payment is just a bit much". You start to see some comps come in (Naz Reid at 3/41 and Harrison Barnes at 3/54) and you realize that even though you fixed up the yard a little... you aren't going to get what you paid for in this house.

We could put some money into putting a pool in the yard and get new flooring (a PnR pg) to increase the value of the house and make it "show better". Then you realize that seems like throwing good money after bad.

While you will survive the house payment and live on the hamster wheel because you can afford it... you lost out on some opportunities (cap space, pt for young players, acquiring better fitting vets to help boost our young players and star).

Unless you find a sucker you just keep making payments until the mortgage runs out I guess.

To me Collins is the kitchen accessory you buy that you think you are going to use all the time then you realize it's too much hassle to use and clean, and it's really only useful for like 1-2 things you like to do, so you end up only using it a few times a year just so you dont feel like you wasted money. You throw it in the corner so it doesnt take up too much counter space.

rate my analogy @infection

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The idea of keeping Collins to squeeze out a modicum of positive value in return relative to what we gave up is the textbook definition of sunk-cost, even if that sunk cost was just opportunity. Well, that and $80M.

If we were going to make that investment into a flip we needed to also have the budget to bring in a pg to help feed him. We did the opposite.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

To me Collins is the kitchen accessory you buy that you think you are going to use all the time then you realize it's too much hassle to use and clean, and it's really only useful for like 1-2 things you like to do, so you end up only using it a few times a year just so you dont feel like you wasted money.

Look at you. I'm cool with this too... I like the house because of the contractual on-going element but he can also be the fancy vitamix or whatever too. Problem is its likely easier to find a sucker to buy that from you at close to what you paid for it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Look at you. I'm cool with this too... I like the house because of the contractual on-going element but he can also be the fancy vitamix or whatever too. Problem is its likely easier to find a sucker to buy that from you at close to what you paid for it.

I added a bit at the end that makes it a stronger analogy.

 

[infection]

In the LDS world, Dallin Oaks gave a reasonably popular talk 15 or so years ago about "Good, Better, Best," that could be retrofitted to be about situations like the Collins situation. It's good, but it's neither better nor best.