Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[LoPo]

Why? Teams go as far as their stars take them… our biggest improvement was always going to be Donovan going from maybe Bradley Beal to maybe Kawhi Leonard… not the same players but having a similar two way value. He had defensive tools… he had the ability to create for others. Rudy it was never possible for him to ne a 25 ppg guy… Donovan in theory could be a defensive menace. That’s why this team was always going as far as Donovan can take them… removing a star for other pieces only makes that more true. If Donovan stays the same player he will get picked on in defense and teams will switch and double and force him to make the right reads.

I’m not sure why you’d even disagree seeing as how you are the biggest Don homer here. If Donovan is good in the mavs series we win it… full stop. Does that mean he’s the only one who sucked? Nope! Even if Mike is hits his regular season averages we likely lose with Doni an playing like that.

Teams go as far as their stars take them… especially if they are a solo star.

Don had a poor series overall, but he actually had a couple good games within the series. We still lost those particular games. Our chemistry was simply terrible. Our coaching was even worse.

A top 20 NBA player isn't going to simply carry his team to a playoff series win. KD had Kyrie and couldn't advance. It's still a team game.

You can't win in the NBA without at least a couple great perimeter defenders and a couple good ones. Many could argue we don't even have one good one. Don needs to work harder on that front, but he still can't make up for roles we don't have filled.

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[FrenchJazzFa]

As Jerry Krause say one day, Star and coach cannot win championship, organization can win championship.....

 

[jom2003]

And both firings were likely mistakes… Atkinson did more with less and Borrego had helped that mess a lot.

Quin is fine… he’s replaceable especially in his current state of not caring.

Atkinson didn't do more. Com'on now. Did his Nets get out of the first round? Did his nets win top seed in the East? In the League? Plus he was given talented players like Russell who was a second pick overall. DM was a thirteenth pick and Rudy was 27th. So I'm not entirely sure he had that much less to work with than Quin.

Like I said, if we were gonna let Quin go, it's probably because of the money. Just don't expect someone like D'antoni or Vogel.

Its probably gonna be for some cheap young coach we never heard of. And hiring unknown young coaches is like lottery tickets. You could end up with someone like Taylor Jenkins. But also prepare for folks like Luke Walton

 

[jom2003]

Why? Teams go as far as their stars take them… our biggest improvement was always going to be Donovan going from maybe Bradley Beal to maybe Kawhi Leonard… not the same players but having a similar two way value. He had defensive tools… he had the ability to create for others. Rudy it was never possible for him to ne a 25 ppg guy… Donovan in theory could be a defensive menace. That’s why this team was always going as far as Donovan can take them… removing a star for other pieces only makes that more true. If Donovan stays the same player he will get picked on in defense and teams will switch and double and force him to make the right reads.

I’m not sure why you’d even disagree seeing as how you are the biggest Don homer here. If Donovan is good in the mavs series we win it… full stop. Does that mean he’s the only one who sucked? Nope! Even if Mike is hits his regular season averages we likely lose with Doni an playing like that.

Teams go as far as their stars take them… especially if they are a solo star.

Well, Jokic took his nuggets out of the first round. Lebron got his Lakers out of the playoffs, twice...and it took him moving to another team to get AS caliber teammates to win titles. It's kinda foolish to think it all comes down to your best player, especially when you surround him with scrubs. Like Donovan dropping 57, third most points ever scored by any player in a playoff game and we still lost that game by 10. Had he scored 68pts we'd have won that game lololol

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well, Jokic took his nuggets out of the first round. Lebron got his Lakers out of the playoffs, twice...and it took him moving to another team to get AS caliber teammates to win titles. It's kinda foolish to think it all comes down to your best player, especially when you surround him with scrubs. Like Donovan dropping 57, third most points ever scored by any player in a playoff game and we still lost that game by 10. Had he scored 68pts we'd have won that game lololol

Cool… so there are instances of good star players losing… great. But look just a little closer… What was missing with that Denver team… could it be they didn’t have their other star? What about when Don went nuclear… could it be the other two stars out-starred him? Also what happened in LA this year… could it be there stars were out or hurt a lot… they’ve had one healthy playoff game run and won a title sooooooo….

THIS TEAM WILL GO AS FAR AS DONOVAN TAKES THEM… is a simplified version of tying this team to his ceiling because we have no other player with a higher potential ceiling and there are no prospects coming up at all. This teams ceiling depends on how Donovan develops… primarily as a defender and playmaker because those are the areas he is most deficient. If he improves as a shot maker that’s great too but he’s already pretty good there. If not he’s a worse version of Dame and a team lead by Dame ain’t going beyond the conference finals if they get extreme luck… if they have another bigger star they have a higher ceiling.

It’s not hard.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Don had a poor series overall, but he actually had a couple good games within the series. We still lost those particular games. Our chemistry was simply terrible. Our coaching was even worse.

A top 20 NBA player isn't going to simply carry his team to a playoff series win. KD had Kyrie and couldn't advance. It's still a team game.

You can't win in the NBA without at least a couple great perimeter defenders and a couple good ones. Many could argue we don't even have one good one. Don needs to work harder on that front, but he still can't make up for roles we don't have filled.

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Fill those holes... guess what... the team still goes as far as Donovan takes them.

He had two average games. We can win those games if he is average on offense and good on defense. If he is GOOD over the totality of the series we win... especially with Luka out 3.5 games. If he is good and Luka is healthy the whole series then we likely lose... because Luka will be the bigger star.

This doesn't mean the role guys don't matter or can't buoy up a star that is underperforming. But the ceiling of this team on average every year will be determined on how big a star Donovan becomes. If he is Beal or Dame then with Rudy they can go to the first or second round. If he gets to the Wade/Luka/Steph level or just below then you can go a lot farther. The easiest way for him to get into a higher tier is simple by being a good/very good defender instead of a bad one or by improving his playmaking... he's good there but not great.

I've seen enough to think those huge jumps aren't there for him. Would love to be surprised. This team essentially needs a third star that plays both ends of the floor to be a title team... the hope was the mix of Bogey/Conley would equal one star and Donovan makes a leap. I've seen enough there to see that isn't going to be the case.

So we can move Bogey for RoCo and Conley for Brogdon, but we will end up in the same place unless Donovan takes big leaps or if Rudy can be more dynamic (which has no chance).

 

[LoPo]

Fill those holes... guess what... the team still goes as far as Donovan takes them.

He had two average games. We can win those games if he is average on offense and good on defense. If he is GOOD over the totality of the series we win... especially with Luka out 3.5 games. If he is good and Luka is healthy the whole series then we likely lose... because Luka will be the bigger star.

This doesn't mean the role guys don't matter or can't buoy up a star that is underperforming. But the ceiling of this team on average every year will be determined on how big a star Donovan becomes. If he is Beal or Dame then with Rudy they can go to the first or second round. If he gets to the Wade/Luka/Steph level or just below then you can go a lot farther. The easiest way for him to get into a higher tier is simple by being a good/very good defender instead of a bad one or by improving his playmaking... he's good there but not great.

I've seen enough to think those huge jumps aren't there for him. Would love to be surprised. This team essentially needs a third star that plays both ends of the floor to be a title team... the hope was the mix of Bogey/Conley would equal one star and Donovan makes a leap. I've seen enough there to see that isn't going to be the case.

So we can move Bogey for RoCo and Conley for Brogdon, but we will end up in the same place unless Donovan takes big leaps or if Rudy can be more dynamic (which has no chance).

I consider 23 points (on 53% shooting), 9 assists (should have been like 15 if guys would have hit wide open looks) and 8 rebounds better than an average game.

We can argue this all we want, but nobody in the NBA can carry a team on their own. Excellent players can be the difference if their team is good enough, but they can't carry a team. Minus maybe LeBron James, but he might be the only guy in the history of the league to do it.

 

[Ebreezy818]

I would love to see my old childhood friend Phil Handy get a opportunity as a head coach in the league who been assistant coach for the the Cleveland Cavs, Toronto and the Lakers who work with the great players over the years

 

[Jingled]

Wizards reportedly interested in Conley.


View: https://twitter.com/basketballtalk/status/1532044467313729536

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I consider 23 points (on 53% shooting), 9 assists (should have been like 15 if guys would have hit wide open looks) and 8 rebounds better than an average game.

We can argue this all we want, but nobody in the NBA can carry a team on their own. Excellent players can be the difference if their team is good enough, but they can't carry a team. Minus maybe LeBron James, but he might be the only guy in the history of the league to do it.

That's fine... had 5 turnovers as well, but sure that can be a good game. Its not like a Playoff Jimmy game doe. Stars can play good in one individual game and still lose... but if Donovan is good over the series we win.

We can argue but argue the right points. No one star can carry their team to a title... but in general those teams will go as far as their biggest star takes them. Our team ceiling will be largely determined on how good Donovan gets. That is in no way a knock... just a cold hard truth.

Dallas is essentially a one star team and Luka carried them to the western conference finals... he needed some help but if Brunson, Kleber, DFS are all out of their minds awesome and Luka isn't good they lose.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ya just have to follow simple logic. If Donovan becomes a plus defender and a better playmaker then you have a chance to have a team with no defensive holes because you don't need a point guard next to him. You can play more 3 and D types and the defense might actually hold up in the playoffs.

Simple removing Bogey and Mike with 3 and D players with Donovan as is will place a big ole target on Donovan that will get attacked to no end in the playoffs... and will lead to the team not having enough offense because there aren't any secondary creators. Add those guys while removing Rudy and the defense has less teeth and maybe the offense is more spread out... but it won't matter much as Donovan still has to beat his guy and the help defender.

 

[LoPo]

That's fine... had 5 turnovers as well, but sure that can be a good game. Its not like a Playoff Jimmy game doe. Stars can play good in one individual game and still lose... but if Donovan is good over the series we win.

We can argue but argue the right points. No one star can carry their team to a title... but in general those teams will go as far as their biggest star takes them. Our team ceiling will be largely determined on how good Donovan gets. That is in no way a knock... just a cold hard truth.

Dallas is essentially a one star team and Luka carried them to the western conference finals... he needed some help but if Brunson, Kleber, DFS are all out of their minds awesome and Luka isn't good they lose.

Of course the team's best player needs to make big plays, but there are plenty of fantastic players who make big plays and those teams don't even make the playoffs or advance. LeBron had an MVP calibur type year and he didn't even make the playoffs. I've already mentioned KD.

Donovan has been one of the best playoff performers the last few years before this year. Our supporting cast and our system is just flawed. It ain't enough.

Luka has a number of capable perimeter defenders to throw at opposing teams. If he plays well and scores a ton, they actually have players who can slow down the opponent. And it ain't Luka slowing down opponents with his defense. It's teammates. Add in that Brunson is a better offensive player than anybody we have not named Donovan. Dinwiddie isn't bad either. Kleber is out there defending better than Bojan and shooting as well has he does.

The biggest thing - Dallas can play modern day NBA basketball. We are stuck with playing just one way.