Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[NBASupes]

I know his contract is an issue but its not Rudy's or the Jazz fault. It is how the system is set up so most players are overpaid. His financial figure makes a trade harder but does not diminish his accomplishments. Rudy gets way too much blame when the Jazz lose and not enough when they win. His stats speak for themselves. The narrative that he was pulled off the floor during the playoffs is a bit overblown by the media and then repeated by internet "experts" as some simply analysis of why the Jazz lost. The reason why Utah lost mainly due to poor three point shooting and their inability to contain Brunson and Luka from penetrating into the key. The Jazz crumbled under the pressure all season so it wasn't a surprise when it happened in the playoffs. Just a few plays here and there and Utah would have won the series. It is not like they were not competitive. Jazz main weakness is size in the backcourt/wings and having another guy who can create on his own. Rudy cannot guard all five guys. The only reason I would trade him is because of his contract and the fact that Jazz front office cannot seem to find size and athleticism at the backcourt and wing positions.

I agree with the 1st sentence, especially for smaller market teams.

It does though. I see it all of the time for our players. When you start asking teams for serious assets, the questions get a lot larger and the criticism gets a lot louder. Toronto fans would be PRAISING the idea of Gobert if it was for Thad Young and Gary Trent Jr. but ask them for OG Annunby and Gobert might as well be a Big 3 player age-wise and the world's most limited player. I have seen it for the last four weeks with John Collins. He was PRAISED by Kings and Spurs fans till they realized the Hawks wanted #4 or Murray. Now he's an empty stats guy in their eyes, LMAO!

He's paid top dollar for defense, if the defense looks breakable, his defensive value just wasn't that good or good enough based on his salary.

I would say the impact speaks for itself but only to a degree.

He was exposed even if it wasn't his fault. Al Horford was our ace in the 60-win Hawk season. LeBron in the ECF destroyed our defensive integrity and Horford has to make up for it only allowing Tristian Thompson to have the series of his life. The average Hawk fan blames Horford for that when in reality, that was our trash-*** perimeter defensive guys and LeBron playing 44 mins a game making it impossible for those defenders. If you put a defender in the game to guard LeBron, on the other end, LeBron gets to rest using his energy to just relentlessly attack.

That's a scheme issue, Bud's teams used to have this issue till Bud finally decided to use the RS to experiment and not try to win every game the same way only to get exposed in the playoffs. The Utah scheme isn't there to stop down perimeter dribble drivers. It's to funnel traffic into Gobert and force mid-range shots but that's not the best idea against Dallas.

He can't guard five guys, no one can and I agree, the 1 and the 3 are your biggest issues. Conley was so damn good the year before, he regressed last year back to 1st year in Utah Conley.

He's making 38 million and 44 million per. That's extremely hard to build around unless you willing to pay the LT like the Warriors where they don't care. The salary cap structure means that impact doesn't equal value. Think about it this way, some of these kids who are just decent get bigger deals than proven vets but that's because of their long term potential and role than their impact. That's why someone like Gobert at his age of 30+ should be making max, 25 million per. Anything more is an overpay VALUE wise even if impact wise, he deserve it.

 

[YoungJefe]

He's paid top dollar for defense, if the defense looks breakable, his defensive value just wasn't that good or good enough based on his salary.

You just paid Trae Young $207M for his offensive value and he was horrible and was extremely inefficient last year too, lol.

 

[cowhide]

Dude, this is an extremely bad post and a terrible way of looking of things.

52/36/79 who had 55.6/40/83 the season before is less of an offensive player than 71/0/69. Come on son, you better than this. John scores on all three levels and is one of the few bigs who can shoots 3s at a very high clip and you are comparing that to a rim runner. I miss that poster of the year guy. That guy was a hell of a poster and an elite representation of Jazz fans. Had me overrating you guys like Jazz fans are extremely smart and some of the best I've seen but I just didn't run into guys like you yet. David Locke and that poster of the year fooled me.

So Collins is more versatile but less efficient than Rudy. I think that is the summation of the discussion. I think the facts confirm this as true. So I guess one has to ask themselves what they consider more important versatility or efficiency? Personally I like guys to make shots on less attempts. That seems to produce more winning moments. The reason why regular offensive numbers are not an indicator of playoff success is because teams have time to make adjustments and exploit opponent's weaknesses. Plus, in the playoffs teams tend to play harder and better defense if they have the team to do so. Utah has been exposed defensively in the playoffs and thus Rudy has taken the blame. In reality the problem is the four other guys not being even average defenders. Ok Royce is slight above average but he has declined the last few years. Conley tries but his lack of size is an issue. DM is an effort issue. Bogey is average and struggles in certain situations.

Lastly, your defense of Smart of him guarding Curry well is more a deflection of reality. There were plenty of times Smart got torched by Curry. Not saying this means Smart is not a good defender. He is DPOY. However much of Smart's success comes from having defenders at all other positions. Tatum, Brown, Williams, White and Hortford are solid or above average defenders. Rudy has maybe Royce who has lost some defensive ability as a decent defender and he is undersize at the 4 and not quick enough to guard fast guards. Bogey has his moments but besides that the rest of the crew is average or horrible. So comparing Rudy and Smart's efficient in the playoffs is an unfair comparison. I know for sure Smart would struggle playing on the Jazz with that supporting cast and Rudy would dominate the paint being on the Celtics and they would be NBA champs.

 

[YoungJefe]

He's making 38 million and 44 million per. That's extremely hard to build around unless you willing to pay the LT like the Warriors where they don't care. The salary cap structure means that impact doesn't equal value. Think about it this way, some of these kids who are just decent get bigger deals than proven vets but that's because of their long term potential and role than their impact. That's why someone like Gobert at his age of 30+ should be making max, 25 million per. Anything more is an overpay VALUE wise even if impact wise, he deserve it.

Why do you care?

 

[Elizah Huge]

Jazz out: Mitchell

Jazz in: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds, 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd both from Boston

Heat out: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, Duncan Robinson, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds

Heat in: Donovan Mitchell

Celtics out: 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd

Celtics in: Duncan Robinson

We immediately save 24.6M in salary.

We get 3 unprotected firsts, 5 seconds and two pick swap options for 2024/2026 1sts from the Heat.

Herro can step into Mitchell’s role on offense.

Boston has a 17.1M trade exception they can absorb Robinson into.

Who says no?

 

[infection]

Who says no?

 

[YoungJefe]

Jazz out: Mitchell

Jazz in: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds, 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd both from Boston

Heat out: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, Duncan Robinson, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds

Heat in: Donovan Mitchell

Celtics out: 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd

Celtics in: Duncan Robinson

We immediately save 24.6M in salary.

We get 3 unprotected firsts, 5 seconds and two pick swap options for 2024/2026 1sts from the Heat.

Herro can step into Mitchell’s role on offense.

Boston has a 17.1M trade exception they can absorb Robinson into.

Who says no?

 

[cowhide]

I agree with the 1st sentence, especially for smaller market teams.

It does though. I see it all of the time for our players. When you start asking teams for serious assets, the questions get a lot larger and the criticism gets a lot louder. Toronto fans would be PRAISING the idea of Gobert if it was for Thad Young and Gary Trent Jr. but ask them for OG Annunby and Gobert might as well be a Big 3 player age-wise and the world's most limited player. I have seen it for the last four weeks with John Collins. He was PRAISED by Kings and Spurs fans till they realized the Hawks wanted #4 or Murray. Now he's an empty stats guy in their eyes, LMAO!

He's paid top dollar for defense, if the defense looks breakable, his defensive value just wasn't that good or good enough based on his salary.

I would say the impact speaks for itself but only to a degree.

He was exposed even if it wasn't his fault. Al Horford was our ace in the 60-win Hawk season. LeBron in the ECF destroyed our defensive integrity and Horford has to make up for it only allowing Tristian Thompson to have the series of his life. The average Hawk fan blames Horford for that when in reality, that was our trash-*** perimeter defensive guys and LeBron playing 44 mins a game making it impossible for those defenders. If you put a defender in the game to guard LeBron, on the other end, LeBron gets to rest using his energy to just relentlessly attack.

That's a scheme issue, Bud's teams used to have this issue till Bud finally decided to use the RS to experiment and not try to win every game the same way only to get exposed in the playoffs. The Utah scheme isn't there to stop down perimeter dribble drivers. It's to funnel traffic into Gobert and force mid-range shots but that's not the best idea against Dallas.

He can't guard five guys, no one can and I agree, the 1 and the 3 are your biggest issues. Conley was so damn good the year before, he regressed last year back to 1st year in Utah Conley.

He's making 38 million and 44 million per. That's extremely hard to build around unless you willing to pay the LT like the Warriors where they don't care. The salary cap structure means that impact doesn't equal value. Think about it this way, some of these kids who are just decent get bigger deals than proven vets but that's because of their long term potential and role than their impact. That's why someone like Gobert at his age of 30+ should be making max, 25 million per. Anything more is an overpay VALUE wise even if impact wise, he deserve it.

I don't disagree that Rudy is more of a 25 million player but that is not how the CBA works. Because young Rudy won DPOY and made ALL NBA and All-star games he earned the salary he now has. As you pointed out franchises are reluctant to give away promising younger players in a trade or lose them in FA they pay the MAX. That is the situation Utah is in now. When players are younger franchises are more patient and overvalue them sometimes. If you take away the contract and look at the player's production it would be a no brainer for Toronto to give OG Annunby in a trade. He is not anywhere close to being the player Rudy is but because fans/organization love his potential they don't want to give him up. Potential suitors for Rudy include teams who don't care about the tax situation or a team who is a contender but needs to get over the hump to the next level. As a Jazz fan, I would rather the Jazz either keep both DM and Rudy and try to see if they could find suitors for Bogey, Conley, Royce or JC to see if they could improve their back court and wing positions. Not an easy chore but that is my preference because I don't' think Utah will get the needed value in trading Rudy.

 

[NBASupes]

So Collins is more versatile but less efficient than Rudy. I think that is the summation of the discussion. I think the facts confirm this as true. So I guess one has to ask themselves what they consider more important versatility or efficiency? Personally I like guys to make shots on less attempts. That seems to produce more winning moments. The reason why regular offensive numbers are not an indicator of playoff success is because teams have time to make adjustments and exploit opponent's weaknesses. Plus, in the playoffs teams tend to play harder and better defense if they have the team to do so. Utah has been exposed defensively in the playoffs and thus Rudy has taken the blame. In reality the problem is the four other guys not being even average defenders. Ok Royce is slight above average but he has declined the last few years. Conley tries but his lack of size is an issue. DM is an effort issue. Bogey is average and struggles in certain situations.

Lastly, your defense of Smart of him guarding Curry well is more a deflection of reality. There were plenty of times Smart got torched by Curry. Not saying this means Smart is not a good defender. He is DPOY. However much of Smart's success comes from having defenders at all other positions. Tatum, Brown, Williams, White and Hortford are solid or above average defenders. Rudy has maybe Royce who has lost some defensive ability as a decent defender and he is undersize at the 4 and not quick enough to guard fast guards. Bogey has his moments but besides that the rest of the crew is average or horrible. So comparing Rudy and Smart's efficient in the playoffs is an unfair comparison. I know for sure Smart would struggle playing on the Jazz with that supporting cast and Rudy would dominate the paint being on the Celtics and they would be NBA champs.

Well, that's obvious. That's generally the case when you compare rim runners to guys who score at three levels.

versatility and efficiency are both important, not separate commodities. Tyson Chandler used to lead the league in efficiency whereas someone like Andrei Kirilenko would provide elite versatility. Ideally, you rather have Tim Duncan who is capable of both consistently.

I personally evaluate guys based on their situation and what's needed. I don't have a narrow-minded way of looking at how I see players across the league.

Yep

Yep

100% on that, Rudy has taken the blunt of the blame. Who are you going to blame, garbage perimeter defenders that's been garbage all season. It wasn't like that was a new discovery.

Yep

He's too small (O'Neale)

He's gotten older and his feet aren't what they used to be defensively. Father time is undefeated (Conley)

I disagree, I think he would be better off defending 1s (Mitchell)

Bogey, I think he's a terrible defender for the most part. He's a good team defender but in the playoffs, you need more than that.


You really can't lock down a player the caliber of Curry. Wiggins quote on quote locked down Luka to 31 PPG against Dallas. Those guys will score, you just want to make it tough and Smart did that from all of the games I saw in the Finals. Even Draymond gave Smart his respect after the series ended.

Smart is a great defender.

Horford and White is a very good defender, the rest are solid defensively. They are capable of good defense but they measure their effort on defense based on their offense effort. It's hard to give max effort on both ends no matter who you are if you are a primary offensive option.

I am not gonna compare Boston to Utah.

Yeah but how would Boston afford Rudy. Horford and Williams combine for less than Gobert's contract. Do you think Gobert is worth two good role players impact wise? Maybe he is but that's tough since it's just one player and create a hole at the 4 unless they go small which would work with Gobert. White/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Gobert would work. I agree with you then.

 

[NBASupes]

I don't disagree that Rudy is more of a 25 million player but that is not how the CBA works. Because young Rudy won DPOY and made ALL NBA and All-star games he earned the salary he now has. As you pointed out franchises are reluctant to give away promising younger players in a trade or lose them in FA they pay the MAX. That is the situation Utah is in now. When players are younger franchises are more patient and overvalue them sometimes. If you take away the contract and look at the player's production it would be a no brainer for Toronto to give OG Annunby in a trade. He is not anywhere close to being the player Rudy is but because fans/organization love his potential they don't want to give him up. Potential suitors for Rudy include teams who don't care about the tax situation or a team who is a contender but needs to get over the hump to the next level. As a Jazz fan, I would rather the Jazz either keep both DM and Rudy and try to see if they could find suitors for Bogey, Conley, Royce or JC to see if they could improve their back court and wing positions. Not an easy chore but that is my preference because I don't' think Utah will get the needed value in trading Rudy.

I agree with most till the Anunoby part. A 24-year-old two-way big wing is the most desired prototype in the NBA and his contract is 18 per. His value is closer to the max level than Rudy's based on age, prototype, and cost. You aren't getting him in any deal that doesn't include Donovan Mitchell. This is where you confuse being a top 15 impact player like Gobert and his trade value. There is no team in the NBA that would trade OG for Gobert. Not one. Two-way wings>>>> everything else unless you are a superstar or a #1 option star scorer. I had Hawk fans try to ask if we could trade OG for Clint. I laughed and said, this is where you confuse production and impact with value, especially how teams see players. There is no team that wouldn't hang up the phone laughing if you offered Capela for their two-way wing, even if the two-way wing is raw like Patrick Williams.

Ya'll gotta understand trade value and impact value. Gobert is superior impact-wise to Mitchell but trade value-wise, Mitchell might as well be twice the player to others around the league.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Looks like the discussion has turned in to a Young Jefe soliloquy.

Not much happening on the trade front as of now and even less on this discussion board.

 

[cowhide]

Well, that's obvious. That's generally the case when you compare rim runners to guys who score at three levels.

versatility and efficiency are both important, not separate commodities. Tyson Chandler used to lead the league in efficiency whereas someone like Andrei Kirilenko would provide elite versatility. Ideally, you rather have Tim Duncan who is capable of both consistently.

I personally evaluate guys based on their situation and what's needed. I don't have a narrow-minded way of looking at how I see players across the league.

Yep

Yep

100% on that, Rudy has taken the blunt of the blame. Who are you going to blame, garbage perimeter defenders that's been garbage all season. It wasn't like that was a new discovery.

Yep

He's too small (O'Neale)

He's gotten older and his feet aren't what they used to be defensively. Father time is undefeated (Conley)

I disagree, I think he would be better off defending 1s (Mitchell)

Bogey, I think he's a terrible defender for the most part. He's a good team defender but in the playoffs, you need more than that.


You really can't lock down a player the caliber of Curry. Wiggins quote on quote locked down Luka to 31 PPG against Dallas. Those guys will score, you just want to make it tough and Smart did that from all of the games I saw in the Finals. Even Draymond gave Smart his respect after the series ended.

Smart is a great defender.

Horford and White is a very good defender, the rest are solid defensively. They are capable of good defense but they measure their effort on defense based on their offense effort. It's hard to give max effort on both ends no matter who you are if you are a primary offensive option.

I am not gonna compare Boston to Utah.

Yeah but how would Boston afford Rudy. Horford and Williams combine for less than Gobert's contract. Do you think Gobert is worth two good role players impact wise? Maybe he is but that's tough since it's just one player and create a hole at the 4 unless they go small which would work with Gobert. White/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Gobert would work. I agree with you then.

My point wasn't if Boston could afford Rudy, it is that if he had better defensive players around him he wouldn't be getting criticized like he does in Utah. Likewise, Smart would not be as effective.

I agree no defender can guard Curry all the time but it helps when you have teammates who can switch or cover your back. Every player on the Celtics starting five is a better defender than Utah is except for Rudy. Williams on the Celtics has potential to be a DPOY some day too.
While I agree having a player who is both versatile and efficient is ideal. You missed the point. The discussion was your claim that Rudy is limited and Collins is more versatile. I agree with this but on the other hand Rudy is more efficient. It doesn't matter how one scores this is not figure skating. The whole point of basketball is to put the ball in the basket so I value efficiency over versatility if the player doesn't have both qualities.