Transgender and sports

[Archie Moses]

Weird hill to die on.

 

[LogGrad98]

Weird hill to die on.

For which one?

 

[One Brow]

I have no problem with the testing. And no, I don't feel there should be different levels of events based on testosterone levels. Technically a male or female could take testosterone if they were naturally below the threshold allowed by the testing standards and not be considered in violation. I also believe that transgendered females, even on HRT, do have certain advantages over most cis females regarding sports.

While there may be some advantage, I'm not aware of any sports on any level where transgendered women are the top-level athletes. If anything, they are under-represented in the top levels.

So, do you feel these "certain advantages" necessitate discrimination?

 

[One Brow]

Marathons and 10K runs aren't High School sports but absolutely the boys' and girls' track teams compete at the same meets.

They do occasionally meet on the same field over the same time frame, but not as part of a unified team.

Did you do absolutely no sports growing up?

I did enough to know that you answer is still misleading, still dodging my point, and still dishonest.

Do you not know any kids who are currently doing sports? Here is the schedule for a single High School Track & Field meet in Utah:

Even you couldn't resist saying it was "a single" meet, as opposed to a team schedule, because, along with all of your other failures, you can't come up with a good sports reason that boy's track teams and girl's track teams (not events, teams) are segregated.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

They do occasionally meet on the same field over the same time frame, but not as part of a unified team. ... Even you couldn't resist saying it was "a single" meet

I said it was a single track meet to provide the proof you requested that boys' and girl's compete at the same meet. As for being the same team, they all ride on the same busses with uniforms all showing the same colors and school name.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

While there may be some advantage, I'm not aware of any sports on any level where transgendered women are the top-level athletes. If anything, they are under-represented in the top levels.

So, do you feel these "certain advantages" necessitate discrimination?

In 2017 and 2018, Terry Miller, a trans woman, won the Connecticut women’s high school track championships in the 55-meter, 100-meter, 200-meter and 300-meter events. Her closest and only real competitor those two years was Andraya Yearwood, who is also a trans woman, so now you are aware that it actually happens.

The Williams Institute at UCLA states the U.S. has 1.4M transgendered people out of 329MM total, or .4% of the population. Of that, only a small portion will be "athletes", and even a smaller number of those will be in the peak age group. It is a small number, so you would not expect to see many period. I'm not sure such a small percentage can be underrepresented.

Sports between men and women were separated for a number of reasons, where in our history, modern sports for women started out for high class individuals, with "feminine sports". And physiological differences between the sexes has been the key driver to keep most sports separate.

For me, we shouldn't judge if someone gets the podium as a litmus test. A genetic female, may miss out on a qualifier or the olympics to a genetic male, or perhaps a scholarship or even a spot on the team. It is foolish to believe that this isn't happening and/or won't happen.

If we combined sports men would take the top spots, scholarships, etc. in the majority of sports. Allowing a genetic male to participate in women sports is just a smaller effect of the same thing. Do you disagree?

Separating athletes by biological sex is necessary because the gap between the best male and female athletes – at all levels – is dramatic.

I'm very sympathetic to transgendered people, and honestly feel for what they are dealing with. If you are born male and believe you are female (or vice versa), no amount of surgery, hormones, societal acceptance, etc., will ever make you whole. You were still born in a body that conflicts with your brain. No matter how supported, the suicide rate for transgendered people is astronomically higher than cisgendered people. As a society, we have to decide what the role of government/society is in protecting the rights of individuals when the rights of some other people appear to conflict with those rights. Many cisgendered female athletes are the biggest proponents for keeping transgendered women out of their sport as they believe it is inherently unfair.

That is the situation we see happening when young females are beaten in sporting events by a transgender female with increased, unfair advantage. This promotion of equality turns into inequality for others. The impact will increase the more it is allowed.

I think we should have Open divisions and women's divisions. Anyone can compete in open divisions, and genetic women can compete in the women only divisions.

 

[One Brow]

I said it was a single track meet to provide the proof you requested that boys' and girl's compete at the same meet. As for being the same team, they all ride on the same busses with uniforms all showing the same colors and school name.

It's kind of sad how poorly you respond to requests.

So, getting back to the topic, can you answer this one: in what way is women's Ivy League sports being destroyed by Lia Thomas.

 

[One Brow]

In 2017 and 2018, Terry Miller, a trans woman, won the Connecticut women’s high school track championships in the 55-meter, 100-meter, 200-meter and 300-meter events. Her closest and only real competitor those two years was Andraya Yearwood, who is also a trans woman, so now you are aware that it actually happens.

Gosh, I was unaware that for top-level athletes, you needed to go to the Connecticut high school track championships.

I guess poor Chelsea Mitchell never had a chance.

Of course, neither is coming close to Williams or Latimer.

List of United States high school national records in track and field - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, I didn't see Terry Miller or Andraya Yearwood anywhere on that record page. Can you find that for me?

The Williams Institute at UCLA states the U.S. has 1.4M transgendered people out of 329MM total, or .4% of the population. Of that, only a small portion will be "athletes", and even a smaller number of those will be in the peak age group. It is a small number, so you would not expect to see many period. I'm not sure such a small percentage can be underrepresented.

Girls doing high school sports US 2025| Statista

The number of girls doing high school sports in the United States increased to **** million in 2024-25.

www.statista.com

Out of 3.4M high-school girl athletes, that's over 10,000 that would be trans. You got 1,000 trans girls dominating their sports? How about 100?

Sports between men and women were separated for a number of reasons, where in our history, modern sports for women started out for high class individuals, with "feminine sports". And physiological differences between the sexes has been the key driver to keep most sports separate.

Describe the physiological differences that require separate meets (as opposed to events) for high school track, wrestling, cross-country, etc. teams, please.

For me, we shouldn't judge if someone gets the podium as a litmus test. A genetic female, may miss out on a qualifier or the olympics to a genetic male, or perhaps a scholarship or even a spot on the team. It is foolish to believe that this isn't happening and/or won't happen.

If it is so foolish, perhaps you can list a time where it actually happened?

Every college and adult athletic league sets their own standards for who can participate. Each league sets out a list of guidelines and goals, as well. If the goal of a league is not to identify the best genetically female athlete, why should it matter that only genetically female athletes participate? Should we forbid 6'6" and taller men from college basketball because they have an advantage?

If we combined sports men would take the top spots, scholarships, etc. in the majority of sports. Allowing a genetic male to participate in women sports is just a smaller effect of the same thing. Do you disagree?

Again, I think every league will set their own standards to comport with the goals they claim to have.

Why are you so worried about trans women getting athletic scholarships?

Separating athletes by biological sex is necessary because the gap between the best male and female athletes – at all levels – is dramatic.

So is separating out boxers by weight class. Do you make similar arguments regarding boxers who try to lose weight to move down a weight class?

I'm very sympathetic to transgendered people, and honestly feel for what they are dealing with. If you are born male and believe you are female (or vice versa), no amount of surgery, hormones, societal acceptance, etc., will ever make you whole. You were still born in a body that conflicts with your brain. No matter how supported, the suicide rate for transgendered people is astronomically higher than cisgendered people. As a society, we have to decide what the role of government/society is in protecting the rights of individuals when the rights of some other people appear to conflict with those rights. Many cisgendered female athletes are the biggest proponents for keeping transgendered women out of their sport as they believe it is inherently unfair.

So, the right you are defending is the right to have a fair athletic contest, but only along the dimension of gender assigned at birth, and not regarding any other factor?

That is the situation we see happening when young females are beaten in sporting events by a transgender female with increased, unfair advantage. This promotion of equality turns into inequality for others. The impact will increase the more it is allowed.

Doom-and-gloom, absent evidence.

I think we should have Open divisions and women's divisions. Anyone can compete in open divisions, and genetic women can compete in the women only divisions.

Perhaps you should create your own sports leagues, then.

So, how do you feel about trans boys competing against cis girls? Archie Moses choked on that question.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

in what way is women's Ivy League sports being destroyed by Lia Thomas.

I'm not in Ivy League sports so I will defer to the reports of morale of the women's swimmers on Penn being really low. Sport is supposed to be fun. That is what is being destroyed and the swimmers are afraid to say anything because people like you will calling them bigots. They rely in the NCAA to make the adult decision but they too are afraid people like you will call them bigots. The NCAA is kicking the can to USA Swimming who are too afraid people like you will call them bigots. They pass it off to the IOC who are afraid people like you will call them bigots. Cancel culture is a real thing and people are justifiably frightened by it.

Congratulations One Brow, you're powerful. With as quick as you, and people like you, are to condemn people as hate filled bigots it has everyone afraid of you. They are so afraid of you that they'd kill off women's sports if that is what it takes. Knowing the polling on this issue, I would bet the majority on JF are against biological males completing in women's' sports but won't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole out of fear.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would bet the majority on JF are against biological males completing in women's' sports but won't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole out of fear.

I am against it.

 

[One Brow]

I'm not in Ivy League sports so I will defer to the reports of morale of the women's swimmers on Penn being really low. Sport is supposed to be fun. That is what is being destroyed and the swimmers are afraid to say anything because people like you will calling them bigots.

Their fun is being destroyed because they got a really good teammate, and it has nothing to do with her being trans? Like, we the Jazz brought in Conley, and Joe Ingles talked about how he wasn't going to have fun playing basketball anymore?

Or, they're not having fun because she is trans, but you don't think that makes them bigots for some reason? So, you'll explain how that's not bigoted, right?

They rely in the NCAA to make the adult decision but they too are afraid people like you will call them bigots. The NCAA is kicking the can to USA Swimming who are too afraid people like you will call them bigots. They pass it off to the IOC who are afraid people like you will call them bigots. Cancel culture is a real thing and people are justifiably frightened by it.

Suuuuuure. Because the NCAA blew off people for years complaining about athletes being taken advantage of, but the massive trans lobby might actually criticize them, so they're afraid. USA Swimming has been treating women as second-class swimmers for decades while ignoring the feminists, but the mighty trans lobby has them cowed. The IOC has been forcing entire cities into financial strain and has networks licking their feet, but their power is nothing compared to the trans lobby. That's what you need to believe, eh?

Congratulations One Brow, you're powerful. With as quick as you, and people like you, are to condemn people as hate filled bigots it has everyone afraid of you.

Why should I have any sort of power in that sphere? Lot's of people have called me a bigot, and they didn't scare me. Perhaps because I know who I am.

Perhaps some people know who they are, and don't like that part or want that part spoken out loud. That might make it seem like I have power, but it's really just a cell phone light illuminating a shadow.

They are so afraid of you that they'd kill off women's sports if that is what it takes.

How do good women athletes kill off women's sports? Please be explicit.

Knowing the polling on this issue, I would bet the majority on JF are against biological males completing in women's' sports but won't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole out of fear.

If I had arguments like the ones you've presented, I wouldn't want to make them known either. I'd be too embarrassed.

 

[One Brow]

I am against it.

Any particular reasons that haven't been expressed?