Transgender and sports

[gandalfe]

 

[Beer]

Competition is NOT fair. Some people are better than others. You were 100% cool with the 4A girl moving into the 1A school and dominating. To you that's perfectly fair. But a transgender female isn't allowed to win. No matter what we can't let her win.

No ****, but unless we are breaking down everything into 100's of divisions based on sex, height, strength, speed, race, lineage, wealth, etc .... then basing it on 2 sexes is the most logical and reasonable way to do it. There are outliers like Lebron and Serena but a vast majority of men are able to at least compete with men and women with women. You would have a to be a pretty terrible male athlete to get beat by even a very very good woman athlete in things like track, basketball, sports that require physicality.

 

[Gameface]

No ****, but unless we are breaking down everything into 100's of divisions based on sex, height, strength, speed, race, lineage, wealth, etc .... then basing it on 2 sexes is the most logical and reasonable way to do it. There are outliers like Lebron and Serena but a vast majority of men are able to at least compete with men and women with women. You would have a to be a pretty terrible male athlete to get beat by even a very very good woman athlete in things like track, basketball, sports that require physicality.

Trans females are not males. That's an important point that can't really be ignored in this.

Trans females may (very much most likely) be on hormone therapy. A trans female on hormone therapy cannot be compared to a male, not even a trans male. As stated previously, a trans female on hormone therapy has lower levels of testosterone than a biological female.

I have met several transgender youths because my daughter is transgender and met them in a trans youth group. My daughter does not like that her only friends are transgender. She'd prefer to be able to just have friends. But that's not how it seems to work. So because she is excluded to the transgender social group I have met a number of transgender kids. Not a ****ing one of them would dominate any sport. This boogeyman of the burly trans female LeBron is a ridiculous myth.

 

[Eminence]

Competition is NOT fair. Some people are better than others. You were 100% cool with the 4A girl moving into the 1A school and dominating. To you that's perfectly fair. But a transgender female isn't allowed to win. No matter what we can't let her win.

This is the objective truth we can see as adults, life isn't fair, most of us can't be professional athletes, or great politicians, or prominent researchers. But it's not the dream we're selling to kids when they compete (athletic or otherwise).

 

[One Brow]

The point of sports is to see who the best at something is. Hard work, discipline, teamwork etc will help you become the best at something. It has to feel pretty crappy for some of those Connecticut girls to put in all that hard work to get as good as they could at sprinting and then have it be for nothing because they got beat by a biological male.

What's the determining factor of "biological male"? Is it genetic, chromosome-based (yes, they are different), genital, other morphological characteristics, endocrinal, something else?

Would you think it fair if, instead, these girls were beaten by "biological females" who were taking hormone therapy in the process of transitioning to men? Because by using these hormone treatments, the transitioning people would have access to muscle developments that the non-transitioning people would not have?

Frankly, "who is the best at something" is meaningless in the long run.

 

[Gameface]

This is the objective truth we can see as adults, life isn't fair, most of us can't be professional athletes, or great politicians, or prominent researchers. But it's not the dream we're selling to kids when they compete (athletic or otherwise).

What is the dream you're selling to your 1A girl who has to compete against the star athlete girl from a 4A school? Do you tell her "well at least you didn't get your *** handed to you by one of those trans freaks"?

 

[Eminence]

What is the dream you're selling to your 1A girl who has to compete against the star athlete girl from a 4A school? Do you tell her "well at least you didn't get your *** handed to you by one of those trans freaks"?

Probably shouldn't be selling dreams to high schoolers, that's kinda where things have to get real. More relevant for elementary school sorts.

That also wasn't me talking about 1A/4A stuff.

 

[Gameface]

Probably shouldn't be selling dreams to high schoolers, that's kinda where things have to get real. More relevant for elementary school sorts.

That also wasn't me talking about 1A/4A stuff.

Okay, my apologies. I misunderstood your post. What I will say, though, is that trans females competing in sports is a lot more fair than it is being portrayed as by the people who seek to stop trans females from competing.

 

[Eminence]

One thing I would appreciate clarification from those in favor of trans individuals competing - do you mean all trans individuals or trans individuals who've transitioned in a certain way (mainly hormonally)?

 

[fishonjazz]

Hopefully you haven't felt like I'm attacking you on this. That's absolutely not my intention. Not towards you especially but also not towards anyone else. I think it is fair for people to be uncertain and have questions and concerns. I also understand that people will come to different conclusions, even with significant info, than mine.

Not at all. I think this has been a good thread with good discussion and good information. I have learned from this discussion abs my stance has been altered at least somewhat if not completely.

I am admittedly quite ignorant on trans related issues. I just want to make it clear to everyone that ignorance shouldn't be confused with hate. I have literally zero amount of hate towards the trans population. I literally only know of one trans person and she is one of my favorite people there is. I hug her and dance with her at the bar just as I would anyone else.
And as far as she goes in relation to this thread, she would be of no threat to the cis women who desire to play sports. She would be in an equal playing field.

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[fishonjazz]

So look. I kind of assumed that the people participating in this thread were aware of this, but maybe that isn't the case.

I have a transgender daughter. She's 19 years old, she has been openly transgender for a little more than 5 years now. I'm not going to discuss private medical details at all because those aren't mine to talk about on a public forum. But needless to say that first my daughter has less than 0% interest in participating in sports. Second, if she did, she would not be dominant against an average female athlete her same age. Third, this **** ain't easy. Shutting more doors, making more explicit statements about exclusion and making clear that she is not allowed to win, that we might tolerate her but we will never accept or embrace her, well she doesn't need a society that regards her that way. And that society will be the less for it.

Good post GF

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[Saint Cy of JFC]

@Cy and Thriller

You seem to be the most vocally in favor of trans individuals competing, so I ask you, what do you feel the purpose of having separate womens leagues is?

I stated earlier in the thread that my opinion is they are to allow folks assigned female a place to compete athletically.

I dont care about women's sports. If they want to play with dudes, cool.

Its just funny to me that some people suddenly care due to "fairness". If they really cared about fairness in sports, they would be posting threads about steroid use, something that is throwing off competitive balance much more than a trans person here or there.

 

[Beer]

Trans females are not males. That's an important point that can't really be ignored in this.

Trans females may (very much most likely) be on hormone therapy. A trans female on hormone therapy cannot be compared to a male, not even a trans male. As stated previously, a trans female on hormone therapy has lower levels of testosterone than a biological female.

I have met several transgender youths because my daughter is transgender and met them in a trans youth group. My daughter does not like that her only friends are transgender. She'd prefer to be able to just have friends. But that's not how it seems to work. So because she is excluded to the transgender social group I have met a number of transgender kids. Not a ****ing one of them would dominate any sport. This boogeyman of the burly trans female LeBron is a ridiculous myth.

A few things. And I'll try not to sound insensitive or demeaning. If I do apologize in advance and that was not my intention.

1. Even after transition surgeries and hormone therapy the the advantages gained by testosterone levels are already there. Sure they can be curbed and even reversed a small amount, last study I read was hormone therapy caused about a 5% loss in muscle strength in transitioning adults. But the height, limb length, bone density, hand size, muscle mass and density, explosive movement power, and on and on have already been gained and can only minimally be curbed or reversed. Caitlyn Jenner is still light years ahead of any other 70 year old woman on the entire planet in terms of strength and athleticism.

2. I agree about the trans Lebron myth. Not worried about that at all. I'm actually not really worried about any of this. I just think its an interesting conversation. I feel bad for trans people, I'm sure its very hard and i'll call them by whatever gender they'd like, whatever name they'd like, whatever. But when what they want infringes on the "rights" of others, I know sports is not a right, that is where the issue comes in.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I guarantee Beer has never thought 1/100th of this much about HS women's sports until now.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I could not give less of a **** if some transitioning man-to-women person ***** all over a bunch of women in a basketball game.

Even if it was my own daughter, I'd tell her tough ****, go out there and do your best.

SPORTS ARE NEVER COMPLETELY FAIR. YOU ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE COMPETING AGAINST SOMEONE WHO IS MORE OR LESS PHYSICALLY TALENTED THAN YOU. IF YOU PLAY HS BASKETBALL, YOU CAN LITTERALY HAVE A TEAM OF GUYS WHO ARE BARELY SIX FEET PLAY AGAINST FUTURE NBA PLAYERS.

You are just a bigoted POS transphobe hiding behind women's sports.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Whatever trans woman is playing HS basketball, I guarantee they will never be at as big of an advantage as Zion vs your average HS basketball player.

For real though, anyone using the "fairness" angle, please respond to this.

 

[Eminence]

I dont care about women's sports. If they want to play with dudes, cool.

Its just funny to me that some people suddenly care due to "fairness". If they really cared about fairness in sports, they would be posting threads about steroid use, something that is throwing off competitive balance much more than a trans person here or there.

I'm not sure how this reply squares with your other replies in this thread.

You pretty obviously care about them being open to trans women or you wouldn't be participating the way you are here.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm not sure how this reply squares with your other replies in this thread.

You pretty obviously care about them being open to trans women or you wouldn't be participating the way you are here.

It squares 100%

I dont care about women's sports. I don't care about the outcomes. I don't keep up with them at all. No one else does either.

I care about not being bigoted and trying to be as inclusive as possible to a group of people that suffer from crazy statistics for depression and suicide.

The main opponents of trans competing in their gender identity category seems to be from "fairness" of the sport. I dont give a **** about fairness. There is no fairness in sports unless you want to put everyone in extremely specific skill categories. Since the education system is highly exploitative of sports, this doesnt exist. We have future pros playing with regular joes at both levels, boys and girls.

 

[Beer]

Whatever trans woman is playing HS basketball, I guarantee they will never be at as big of an advantage as Zion vs your average HS basketball player.

For real though, anyone using the "fairness" angle, please respond to this.

Sure, but he isn't going "down" a level to play. He is at the only place he can play. If he decided he wanted to play on the freshman team as a senior there would be an issue.

 

[Eminence]

The positive of sports in my eyes - drawing people (largely children) to participate in an active/healthy lifestyle (also entertainment, but that feels largely separate). I'm concerned that if trans-women take up a notable portion (I couldn't tell you what that % is) of positions in high level womens sports we could see a correlated decrease in engagement from AFAB individuals.