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Tre Johnson Will Likely be The 5th Pick

I apologize for not following the conversation closely, but just my two cents on vets while tanking:

- I do think it's good to have vets for player development, but you don't need too many
- Vets can help set standards for behavior, so it's critical to have the right vets.
- I like the idea of having play finishers, especially for guys developing on ball skills is helpful. The main idea is so that they have a relief valve, but also for practicing good passing habits
 
I understand that the premise of the discussion is when you're tanking." That was clear from the beginning.

I don't disagree that playing young guys is both a good way to ensure the tank is effective and a good way to utilize the PT made available by tanking. In fact, I agree strongly with it.

I have not advocated for some arbitrary limit on the number of prospects. I don't have strong feelings on the ideal ratio. However, I'm reasonably confident tanking FOs use some kind of subjective heuristic in deciding how many prospects to carry.

Nor would I necessarily pass on a legit good prospect in favor of some vet, if it came to that, particularly if that vet isn't in my long-term plans.

You keep assigning to me opinions I don't hold and assertions I haven't made. A pattern I've noticed going back to other exchanges. Honestly, my impression is that you're so intent on making your argument that you don't read or try to understand what the other person is actually arguing.

To be clear (yet again), my frame of reference IS NOT whether tanking is the right way to team build. My frame of reference is how to make tanking a more effective strategy. I've stated repeatedly and clearly that I am skeptical that throwing young players (prospects) into the deep end and making them swim, absent the mentoring, structure, and opportunity for playing competitive basketball offered by competent vets is the best way to develop talent, nor does it necessarily facilitate a timely pivot from losing to winning. I don't claim this is God's truth; it's a conclusion I've reached via the application of casual observation and learned experience. I could be wrong, I freely admit it. In contrast, you appear to believe that loading up on prospects and, in effect, making them swim, is the better player development strategy. This appears to be crux of our disagreement.

The burden of proof should be on my side? I'd argue that you have a greater burden of proof than I. In arguments and debates, the burden of proof typically falls on the person making a positive claim or assertion - especially one that challenges the status quo or existing beliefs. In an earlier post, you conceded that perhaps your position (i.e., "more prospects always better than fewer prospects") is not widely shared among FOs. Thus, what you call "appeal to authority" is rather establishing the status quo. (This convention isn't strictly true. If the status quo is to believe in, say conspiracies or other such patent nonsense, I don't agree that the burden of proof lies with skeptics. So, such conventions only go so far. I am also cognizant that I appear to be bucking the status quo where it comes to my skepticism of tanking as an effective team building strategy. So, it cuts both ways.)

So, as best I can tell, you're argument that I "don’t think there’s really such thing as having too many prospects" is not the same as "more is always better" hinges on the premise the the prospects are quality prospects, thus more isn't necessarily better if they aren't quality, while "no such thing as having too many prospects" implies they are quality prospects. Does this explain how you see the difference?

If so, one could as easily qualify the "more is always better" to imply more "quality" prospects. At the same time, I don't think anyone would argue that loading up on poor quality prospects is a good strategy. Thus, both statements seem to me to imply that the prospects are of reasonable quality. Thus, I struggle to see the difference between them.

If not, I'm genuinely curious how you distinguish them.

Finally, in my last post I offered an olive branch via a "let's agree to disagree," which is generally understood to be an acknowledgement that disputants aren't likely to reach a productive common ground and thus the best course is for both sides to move on. You apparently didn't take the hint. So, seeing how we appear to be at an unbreachable impasse, let's agree to disagree and move on. If you want the last word, it's yours.

If you think there is a such thing as too many prospects, that must mean you think there must be a certain amount of vets on the roster. It's zero sum, there is no way around it.

The burden of proof is absolutely on you to prove that NBA teams think the way you say they do. That part of the argument is irrelevant to my claim. Like I said, I could not care less if most NBA teams think the way I do or not. I gave my claim and showed the reasons why. It is your choice to bring up that NBA teams think this way. So if you ware the one who uses that as an argument, you should be the one supporting it. You are the one making the positive claim that "NBA teams think this way", not me. It's not up to me to show whether or not this is true or why it actually matters.

As for the distinction, it's pretty clear. Saying "more is always better" suggests that having more prospects is inherently better in every situation, which is not what I said. My statement "I don’t think there’s really such a thing as having too many prospects" simply means that you shouldn't turn down a prospect just because you already have a lot. It's about staying open to opportunity, not blindly chasing volume.
 
I apologize for not following the conversation closely, but just my two cents on vets while tanking:

- I do think it's good to have vets for player development, but you don't need too many
- Vets can help set standards for behavior, so it's critical to have the right vets.
- I like the idea of having play finishers, especially for guys developing on ball skills is helpful. The main idea is so that they have a relief valve, but also for practicing good passing habits

I don't disagree with any of this, it's the idea that we can't draft at 21 because we have too many prospects that I disagree with. Anyways, I'm done flooding this thread with this conversation. If we do trade up to #3 for Tre Johnson (or anyone else), I would hope that it's because we truly believe in the quality difference and not because we believe we don't have room for another prospect. We have more than enough playing time to add two more prospects if we're tanking. I see the value of vets and if we want that value it's the Springer/Juzang/Martin types that can bite the dust first.
 
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