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Truth Authority (????)

babe

Well-Known Member
@colton.... your comments about the objective study of lies in the public sphere has got me thinking.... about "Fact-Checking" sites.... about various on-line ****pedias, and such. And then the other night there was a fellow on the radio who does some kind of "analysis" of lies.

I confess I'm a former extremely committed believer in my own stuff,.... which no one else could really believe....., and have from thence turned skeptic about almost everything.

Bottom line, I don't believe people have what it takes to actually deserve "authority" in laying down beliefs or standards others should accept... and I would have to be pretty hard on your assertions of "fact" as well.

That.... and the fairly standard view of modern philosophy which has for decades.... almost two centuries now…. held that positivist beliefs of all sorts....are all failures.... There is "No Answer".

And yet.... we are neck deep in a political bog right now where both sides are claiming the authority of absolute truth....

Who makes the best Chance Gardner..... Trump or Pelosi???
 
This might be the guy who was interviewed on the radio when I was listening.

http://www.statementanalysis.com/

At any rate.... as I recall.... and really I do have some disability in recalling things I've heard once....

Trump got a pass because his comments generally are negotiations....a sales pitch....but when he is not in that mode, he speaks in a manner that is consistent with his real beliefs or real actions. We all do "hype" like sales pitches.... my kids are great.... business is great.... the weather is great.... "Honey, you're great". "My button is bigger...." But a lot of politicians are saying stuff off of some opinion poll, just saying it to get the votes. Like Mitt. Who did not pass the statement analyst test.
 
This thread is not for idiots. It is for @colton, and it is for sensible discussion on methods for analyzing statements to determine truthfulness.

Here is Mark McClish dealing with topics currently in the news....

http://www.statementanalysis.com/in-the-news/

I clicked on the analysis of Mike Pompeo responses about the recent Jamal Khashogi murder....

http://www.statementanalysis.com/in-the-news/mike-pompeo/

So obviously, MP was not telling anyone what he knew, or believed, or thought, or imagined. He was trying to protect American vested interests....

I looked for some Trump stuff.....
 
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I did find this on one of the conservative leaders... Jim Jordan....

http://www.statementanalysis.com/in-the-news/mike-pompeo/

I really can't disregard the analysis McClish gives here.

Abuse which involves people you know.... and depend on....people you can't do without.... is generally, at least at first, given the blind eye. Because we are not prepared for the consequences of seeing it. Well, we should be prepared to see stuff.

even when it involves our political fav dealmakers. Both parties.

So this is not a troll. Just wishing for some real conversation on a serious subject.
 
So this is not a troll. Just wishing for some real conversation on a serious subject.

Liar. Never seen you respond to any actual point anyone ever made. You'll just write the same 5000 word essay regardless of anyone says.
 
well at the moment he just seems to be conversing with himself, so maybe just leave him be...

there's always the ignore feature - if you need a tutorial, just ask
 
https://parade.com/57236/viannguyen/former-cia-officers-share-6-ways-to-tell-if-someones-lying/

Here is a book written by a former CIA agent claiming to describe how to tell when people are lying. One of the premises is that the brain requires time to invent the lie, while the truth is readily available. So there are several tells that someone is thinking up the lie. There might be something to some of these tells, but I don't believe it is always accurate. There could be other reasons for the pause, or the person could think of the lie and then decide to tell the truth after all.


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In her job, my wife had an ex-fbi (maybe it was cia) agent come to speak to them about tells. Women have more tells than men iirc and I think it’s far more than 6 but maybe I’m wrong. Thought women had 21 and men had 18. Could be wrong though and that last part may be from a film.
 
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Liar. Never seen you respond to any actual point anyone ever made. You'll just write the same 5000 word essay regardless of anyone says.

I doubt could write the same essay twice/

Impossible to evaluate your claim unless someday.... somewhere.... someone has an actual point to make..... and wastes their time on me.

and..... then...., well...…, you'd need to be paying attention to catch it.
 
https://parade.com/57236/viannguyen/former-cia-officers-share-6-ways-to-tell-if-someones-lying/

Here is a book written by a former CIA agent claiming to describe how to tell when people are lying. One of the premises is that the brain requires time to invent the lie, while the truth is readily available. So there are several tells that someone is thinking up the lie. There might be something to some of these tells, but I don't believe it is always accurate. There could be other reasons for the pause, or the person could think of the lie and then decide to tell the truth after all.


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Thanks for this contribution. At least two of these were mentioned on the radio program I heard and referred to in the OP. The "authority" did have a book out, which he was hyping.... and had worked for years in law enforcement and as a consultant on the subject.... and used the term "statement analysis".... and was mostly discussing the actual words of the statement.

He considered pronoun usage important. "I" inferred the maker of the statement was taking responsibility. "we" inferred evasion of responsibility.

I imagine that a person who has had time to prepare to lie can do a fair job of evading detection.... especially if they have a lot of experience analyzing behaviors or modes of speaking/writing.

I imagine that people with a lot of experience with deliberate lies can do quite well at looking credible to even experienced lie detectors.

Well, Colton had quite a compendium of Trump lies, and the reason I thought it worth considering his methods is that I remember he was very emphatic in one comment a few years ago that Hillary was a liar.

Taking lies one at a time, checking facts supposedly known or available, is one way to get at it towards a conclusion that someone is lying, but then Jason's rule "It's not a lie if you believe it" would come into the analysis. Well, that might be fair enough when the "facts" are contestable. But I think, even so, that people lie to themselves a lot, and believe their own lies.....

Being human, I think we are not very consistent in our ways generally. We might tell the truth a lot, but still lie when we see some need to do it, or we might lie a lot but still tell the truth when we care to. So hard labels like "liar" or "honest" would rarely be fixed truths.

Colton indicated he was involved in some sort of collegiate project on the subject. I wonder if the character of that project is like what I think "Wikipedia" and "Snopes" are..... social engineering projects designed to project some pre-determined societal objective. A lot of hard work to get people to believe what you want. Really, really.... really.... big lies.

And, come to think of it.... Encyclopedia Britannica... as massive and objective as it is... is still a "British" view of world, perhaps like Catholic or American efforts on the same scale. Wiki and Snopes might not be as thorough or as well-researched... certainly not nearly as scholarly, but it is fair, imo, to class them as Liberal views of the universe. I think Wiki has become practically a joke to our younger people.... middle to high schoolers just laugh at it as a reliable source.

I think objectivity requires us to suspend our biases and analyze the subject with impartiality...…, and that requires some personal honesty and a really well-trained sort of personal discipline. Not exactly things political agenda pushers care for, where there is a premium on persuasion and achieving a particular result.

Well.... perhaps Colton doesn't care to persuade me on this subject.

A lot of very progressive folks in here, practically no "conservatives"..... not my idea of a good forum for a broad discussion. But, for me, it is a gold mine for finding people who are not "just like me". And what I'm actually after is material to challenge my established ideas. Not that I want to be "converted", but that I want to learn how to become persuasive. Or, that I want to just understand some things better.
 
In her job, my wife had an ex-fbi (maybe it was cia) agent come to speak to them about tells. Women have more tells than men iirc and I think it’s far more than 6 but maybe I’m wrong. Thought men had 21 and men had 18. Could be wrong though and that last part may be from a film.
Yeah, I'm sure there are more tells. And to be fair I have not read the book so there are probably more in the book, this was just a synopsis.

It may be that the CIA/FBI limits what it's former agents can reveal about their training.

The other thing I noticed in the analysis babe posted is it is clear that Pompeo had been trained in media relations. Having had some of that training it's fairly obvious what he is doing. When a asked a question about a sensitive topic, the training is to respond to the question and then pivot to your talking points. You don't have to answer the just respond to it. That doesn't necessarily mean he is lying, or has something to hide, just that he had been trained and is sticking to his training.



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Thanks for this contribution. At least two of these were mentioned on the radio program I heard and referred to in the OP. The "authority" did have a book out, which he was hyping.... and had worked for years in law enforcement and as a consultant on the subject.... and used the term "statement analysis".... and was mostly discussing the actual words of the statement.

He considered pronoun usage important. "I" inferred the maker of the statement was taking responsibility. "we" inferred evasion of responsibility.

I imagine that a person who has had time to prepare to lie can do a fair job of evading detection.... especially if they have a lot of experience analyzing behaviors or modes of speaking/writing.

I imagine that people with a lot of experience with deliberate lies can do quite well at looking credible to even experienced lie detectors.

Well, Colton had quite a compendium of Trump lies, and the reason I thought it worth considering his methods is that I remember he was very emphatic in one comment a few years ago that Hillary was a liar.

Taking lies one at a time, checking facts supposedly known or available, is one way to get at it towards a conclusion that someone is lying, but then Jason's rule "It's not a lie if you believe it" would come into the analysis. Well, that might be fair enough when the "facts" are contestable. But I think, even so, that people lie to themselves a lot, and believe their own lies.....

Being human, I think we are not very consistent in our ways generally. We might tell the truth a lot, but still lie when we see some need to do it, or we might lie a lot but still tell the truth when we care to. So hard labels like "liar" or "honest" would rarely be fixed truths.

Colton indicated he was involved in some sort of collegiate project on the subject. I wonder if the character of that project is like what I think "Wikipedia" and "Snopes" are..... social engineering projects designed to project some pre-determined societal objective. A lot of hard work to get people to believe what you want. Really, really.... really.... big lies.

And, come to think of it.... Encyclopedia Britannica... as massive and objective as it is... is still a "British" view of world, perhaps like Catholic or American efforts on the same scale. Wiki and Snopes might not be as thorough or as well-researched... certainly not nearly as scholarly, but it is fair, imo, to class them as Liberal views of the universe. I think Wiki has become practically a joke to our younger people.... middle to high schoolers just laugh at it as a reliable source.

I think objectivity requires us to suspend our biases and analyze the subject with impartiality...…, and that requires some personal honesty and a really well-trained sort of personal discipline. Not exactly things political agenda pushers care for, where there is a premium on persuasion and achieving a particular result.

Well.... perhaps Colton doesn't care to persuade me on this subject.

A lot of very progressive folks in here, practically no "conservatives"..... not my idea of a good forum for a broad discussion. But, for me, it is a gold mine for finding people who are not "just like me". And what I'm actually after is material to challenge my established ideas. Not that I want to be "converted", but that I want to learn how to become persuasive. Or, that I want to just understand some things better.
I wish you well in your quest to have a legitimate discussion with someone of opposing views. One of the hardest things for me in our current environment is that it is very difficult to actually exchange ideas. Most of the time we simply lob "zingers" at one another.

Truth is not malleable, but our understanding of it is flawed. There is objective truth or reality, in my opinion, but we have limited ability to spend the time and effort to discover it, if it is even possible for us to do so. I believe humans take short cuts in researching the truth. We find parts of the picture that reinforce our world view and take that as proof of the whole.

The problem with our current media situation, as I see it, is there are few trusted brokers of the truth. Walter Cronkite, Huntley and Brinkley, and Ed Murrow are gone. Who do we trust when so many sources of "news" are purposely selling falsehoods as truth. That is where the fact checkers have value, in my opinion. Snopes regularly gives the back ground of urban legends and helps me discard things that are most likely false. They may not be perfect, but fact checkers usually document their opinions/ findings. The alternative is that we either believe everything, or nothing at all, or that everything is open to discussion/disputation. Fox News is blatantly skewing their depictions of events to favor their pre-held views. Mother Earth News may be the left's equivalent, but really it's hard to come up with a Fox counterpart. What most modern "conservatives" claim is biased media, is really just main stream.




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Is it possible that sometimes people make statements that are just wrong but not lies? Seems that often disagreements devolve into each side accusing the other of lying as opposed to disagreeing or just being wrong, especially in the political sphere. Bush lied people died springs to mind when really everyone believed the Intel we had, hence the votes to go to war, and it ended up being wrong, not a lie.
 
Is it possible that sometimes people make statements that are just wrong but not lies? Seems that often disagreements devolve into each side accusing the other of lying as opposed to disagreeing or just being wrong, especially in the political sphere. Bush lied people died springs to mind when really everyone believed the Intel we had, hence the votes to go to war, and it ended up being wrong, not a lie.
Definitely possible. I'm confident it happens all the time.

The intel going into the gulf war is a good case study. It goes to who knew the intel was suspect and when did they know it. There were people who at the time tried to blow the whistle, but were shut down. LtCol Karen Kwiatowski comes to mind. If President Bush or Colin Powell did not get the dissenting views on the intel before going forward, then they didn't lie. However, someone had the responsibility to ensure decision makers had the best picture/ intelligence. If they held back. I think they lied to the president, etc.

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Is it possible that sometimes people make statements that are just wrong but not lies? Seems that often disagreements devolve into each side accusing the other of lying as opposed to disagreeing or just being wrong, especially in the political sphere. Bush lied people died springs to mind when really everyone believed the Intel we had, hence the votes to go to war, and it ended up being wrong, not a lie.

Possibilities are endless, generally.

As and old fart who opposed the Bush War, I thought then that the WMDs were there, and everyone knew, because we shipped them there to help in the effort to oppose Iran as Israel wanted us to. That's not even debatable. But then Russia helped pack them up and get them safely out of the way to make us out for the liars we generally are. We just don't care to publish the pics of that WMD removal into Russia.....would make us out too conveniently as the massive fools we are, CIA and all.

It was a different political era back then. There was no "maverick" non-establishment Pres trying to upset the globalist applecart. The two establishment parties never cared about "Truth" at all. And that includes the establishment Media even un Cronkite et all before there was any alternative for public information.

We are still being played by the partisans on every side. God knows we have no valid information at all, even now.
 
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