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Let me add a thought or two...

I think you are absolutely right that people aren't as productive when they don't like what they're doing. But I think it's more than that. I think they have to not like what they're doing, AND they don't have a purpose for which they're doing it.

People that just work a job because it's a job and providing a steady paycheck have exactly that - a job. They don't have a career.
The difference between developing a career and having a job is that someone working towards establishing a career recognizes the opportunities it provides.
Some select few throw caution to the wind, and they choose to make their dream their career.
The rest develop their careers, knowing that it will eventually allow them to pursue their dreams.
Those that can't or won't do either of those things have a job, and a bad attitude.

Attitude is key - but not in the way I think you're thinking. (That sounded like something from Princess Bride.)

EDIT: And then there are those, like me, who along the way find a career that is immensely satisfying, and highly enjoyable. Is what I'm doing now my idealistic dream? No. But it sure makes it possible for me to still participate in dream activities.
 
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This. We, in our current state, are what we get for coddling the rich when the mentality of the population is built on simple, human concept: Greed.

I'm no economist, but I will say that until we move away from personal Greed as the driver to get people to work, and work harder, we are doomed to end up in the same position we're in now, possibly worse. We need to happy with ourselves, and where we're at. That will naturally get people to be more productive.


Everyone asks why is the Economy stagnant when any talking head worth their salt says it's going to kick off any second now? If you made your fortune sucking the teet of Reaganomics your entire life, and someone finally said "Yeah, this isn't getting us anywhere. Lets change tactics!", how quick would you be to adopt change?

Well they do say that money is the root of all evil, so you have a point. But greed is an unavoidible capitalistic evil.

The American Dream is a sham and as much of a pyramid scheme as any of the Utah County MLM companies.

The rich get richer off the backs of those who chase the dream.

Unfortunately automation is killing the middle class which makes the seperation of the classes an ever growing chasm. The economy will never be as healthy as it was.

Finding happiness in this life is not the key to a recovering economy anyhow, and imo is not the key to life itself. The Bible teaches to NOT love your life. John 12:25 - "Anyone who loves thier life will lose it, while anyone who hates thier life in this world will keep it for eternal life."
 
Question: Why do you think the republicans spent four years obstructing every jobs plan and highway bill Obama pushed forward, and went on that nonsense tax cut mantra followed by cut the tax cuts mantra?

Because that's about as far as Republican thinking on economic policy goes these days. Or so it seems. I really wish the Republican party would articulate an actual vision for the country that goes beyond the superficial banality of dog whistle appeals to its base.
 
Unfortunately automation is killing the middle class which makes the seperation of the classes an ever growing chasm. The economy will never be as healthy as it was.

THIS.

Hence why it is SO IMPORTANT to get an education... but that's a whole different topic.
 
Well they do say that money is the root of all evil, so you have a point. But greed is an unavoidible capitalistic evil.

The American Dream is a sham and as much of a pyramid scheme as any of the Utah County MLM companies.

The rich get richer off the backs of those who chase the dream.

Frankly, I don't give a rip what the Bible says, I love life; I love my life, and I hope my children love their lives, and their children, and their children. I understand what that quote is getting at, but really, it's a dumb way of looking at the world.

Unfortunately automation is killing the middle class which makes the seperation of the classes an ever growing chasm. The economy will never be as healthy as it was.

Finding happiness in this life is not the key to a recovering economy anyhow, and imo is not the key to life itself. The Bible teaches to NOT love your life. John 12:25 - "Anyone who loves thier life will lose it, while anyone who hates thier life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

Wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view of things.

Greed is a universal human trait; it doesn't need capitalism to make it come to life. It exists everywhere from the tribal lands of the most backward parts of Afghanistan to Wall St.

You have no idea whatsoever that the economy 'will never be as good as it was.' So, if this nation exists another, say, 1,000 years, it'll never enjoy another period of economic prosperity?

I don't give a rip what the Bible says. I love life, and I hope my children love life, and their children, and their children. While I get what this Bible quote is trying to say, I think it's a pretty non-productive and unfulfilling way to look at and live life. (But then, I don't take my marching orders from Iron age sheep herder cultures in any case.)
 
Forgive me, but isn't it quite common for those, with excess, to devote much of that excess to pursuing dreams?
How many rich people buy jet planes because they've always wanted to fly?
How many rich people put a recording studio in their basement and generate quality music because they finally can afford the tools to do so?
How many rich people retire early to open wineries, write books, go on service trips or missions, travel, etc.?

I would argue that part of the reason people WANT excess is so they can use it to pursue their dreams. It's much easier to try and fail if you have a solid foundation of income than it is to try and fail when all your eggs are in that single basket.

Regardless, I wouldn't say people are working so hard for excess without a purpose. They have something in mind for that money, obviously. You make it sound like "excess" is a bad thing. I don't agree.

I don't see an answer to my question.

Nor did I ever, at any given point, say there should be a hard cap on what any one person makes. Just that happiness with ones self can increase productivity and optimism. Which are both exceedingly good for the economy.

So adding a general better understanding of what happiness is, and at what point you can be happy and content without more money, is good for the economy. And there's a cheap, non-invasive way to do it; instill it into our children. The basics, along with a sense of security, I feel would make a better community as a whole. But that's just a byproduct of the root, which is the understanding that money != happiness.

And then there are those, like me, who along the way find a career that is immensely satisfying, and highly enjoyable. Is what I'm doing now my idealistic dream? No. But it sure makes it possible for me to still participate in dream activities.
For what it's worth dude, we're the same person. First I wanted to be a doctor. Then I realized I cringe when hearing someone cry out in pain. Then I wanted to be a marine biologist, but realized there's no money in that unless you're in the top .2%. Then a cook, but same thing. Then a mortician, because it's a steady business.

On my way to one of these, I paid for myself by working as a phone jockey for a call center. Sharpened my skills, got promotions, jumped to better companies until I landed with the one I'm at now. Got promoted off the HelpDesk and into Medical Records Software analysis. Now, I've come as close to full circle as I can. I manage decision support, which consists of the alerts that come up for a providers when s/he's doing something potentially dangerous for the patient, and managing physician training and understanding of why those alerts exist. There's more to it than that, but knowing I had a hand in caring for the patient, and in some cases preventing death from physician ignorance, is overwhelmingly satsifying.
 
jimmy eat jazz Wow, this is a pretty pessimistic view of things.

Greed is a universal human trait; it doesn't need capitalism to make it come to life. It exists everywhere from the tribal lands of the most backward parts of Afghanistan to Wall St.

Yeah, that's why I said that money is the root of all evil.

You have no idea whatsoever that the economy 'will never be as good as it was.' So, if this nation exists another, say, 1,000 years, it'll never enjoy another period of economic prosperity?

Okay...the economy AS WE KNOW IT, will never be as healthy as it has been. Unless some cold fusion pipe dream revolutionizes this countrie's this economy, it is doomed. That's not pessimism, that's reality. Middle class jobs will continue to be eliminated and replaced by temp and part time workers with no benifits. If you see a reversal in this encompassing trend, please contribute.

I don't give a rip what the Bible says. I love life, and I hope my children love life, and their children, and their children. While I get what this Bible quote is trying to say, I think it's a pretty non-productive and unfulfilling way to look at and live life. (But then, I don't take my marching orders from Iron age sheep herder cultures in any case.)

It's your choice to not give a rip about the Bible, but what do you think the economic future holds for your kids and thier kids?
 
I don't see an answer to my question.

Probably because I wasn't sure how your question applied to the argument. Let me try again.

And you don't think starting with something small, inexpensive, and low cost like putting happiness over the need for excess, can have an effect on the economy long term?

Honestly? Since we're headed down the social argument path and not the economic path, I'm going to say that your question is not logical, and here's why.

I believe that the opportunity is there for people to pursue things that will bring them the most happiness. I believe that if there's anyplace where being temporarily set back or financially dormant (due to trying hard to achieve ones dreams) is something that can be recovered from, it's here. I don't think that all of these "unhappy" people are not pursuing their dreams and aspirations because of a lack of opportunity.

People choose to be where they are. They either choose it because they actively pursued the path they're on, or they passively avoided the discomfort and risk from pursuing another path.

But regardless... I'm just not sure I agree with your premise. I tried to say that in my response. Let me see if I can explain it another way.

I don't believe people just simply work for "excess". I believe they ARE pursuing happiness as they see it by doing so. I think that there are some limited cases where people are doing it simply to increase the score (read: net worth), yes. But I think the vast majority of the time, people are working their butts off, trying to generate excess so they can use that excess to pursue the very dreams that you believe they're abandoning by working hard to get excess.

So in my mind, your question is circular.

Regarding your vision of the entire world being able to only do those things that will bring them the most joy and happiness... I still say that would be extremely damaging to the economy at this stage of our societal development. Maybe later on, that would be cool, especially if we're able to increase automation to the point where all want and hunger is eliminated from the world, and people have no concerns about the lower levels of Maslow's heirarchy of needs. But right now, vacating people that see themselves as "unhappy" or "unfulfilled" from millions of jobs that are basically the backbone of our economy would have a devastating affect. And it would be a temporary affect... because after all of these people get frustrated with pursuing those dreams and not having it pan out financially enough to sustain themselves (again, supply and demand - an overabundance of supply creates a relative lack of demand, and a lack of opportunity for people to actually be able to subsist on an income derived from that activity), they would find themselves migrating back to those very jobs they vacated - because demand would then have increased for people to fill those essential roles, and those roles would allow them to subsist and meet those basic needs according to Maslow's heirarchy.

I'll say it again. I think you're argument is noble. But it's also incredibly overly-idealistic, and doesn't take into account the way the world works. There is no economic structure on the planet that would allow all people to do what it is you're espousing all at once. And I honestly don't see what the problem is. If people wanted to pursue their dreams hard enough, they would. If there's anyplace that can be done it's here. The problem is a lot less one of opportunity and more one of the basic need of human beings to avoid pain and seek pleasure or comfort. While pursuing those dreams may bring many some pleasure or comfort, it's not enough to override the pleasure or comfort derived from continuing on their current path of work.

Nor did I ever, at any given point, say there should be a hard cap on what any one person makes. Just that happiness with ones self can increase productivity and optimism. Which are both exceedingly good for the economy.

Agreed.

So adding a general better understanding of what happiness is, and at what point you can be happy and content without more money, is good for the economy. And there's a cheap, non-invasive way to do it; instill it into our children. The basics, along with a sense of security, I feel would make a better community as a whole. But that's just a byproduct of the root, which is the understanding that money != happiness.

I'm mostly OK with this. I guess where we differ is our polarized beliefs on the effect it can have on the economy. I think this happens much, much more than you're recognizing, especially in this day and age of "enablement". More kids are pursuing their dreams now than they ever have. And I believe more adults are doing so as well, even if doing so on a somewhat delayed schedule.


For what it's worth dude, we're the same person. First I wanted to be a doctor. Then I realized I cringe when hearing someone cry out in pain. Then I wanted to be a marine biologist, but realized there's no money in that unless you're in the top .2%. Then a cook, but same thing. Then a mortician, because it's a steady business.

On my way to one of these, I paid for myself by working as a phone jockey for a call center. Sharpened my skills, got promotions, jumped to better companies until I landed with the one I'm at now. Got promoted off the HelpDesk and into Medical Records Software analysis. Now, I've come as close to full circle as I can. I manage decision support, which consists of the alerts that come up for a providers when s/he's doing something potentially dangerous for the patient, and managing physician training and understanding of why those alerts exist. There's more to it than that, but knowing I had a hand in caring for the patient, and in some cases preventing death from physician ignorance, is overwhelmingly satsifying.

How interesting! People's stories about how they got to where they are can be so fascinating. That's cool that you got to where you were still involved in the medical field and making a difference. Kudos.
 
. Unfortunately automation is killing the middle class which makes the seperation of the classes an ever growing chasm. The economy will never be as healthy as it was.

No it's not.

Look at what "automation" and "technology" has done to Europe. While our middle-class has been destroyed the middle classes in Western Europe has actually increased. If automation really killed the middle class than advanced economies world side would be seeing a decline of their middle-classes. That just isn't the case.

The destruction of our middle-class has a number of factors. Automation is not one of them.
 
No it's not.

Look at what "automation" and "technology" has done to Europe. While our middle-class has been destroyed the middle classes in Western Europe has actually increased. If automation really killed the middle class than advanced economies world side would be seeing a decline of their middle-classes. That just isn't the case.

The destruction of our middle-class has a number of factors. Automation is not one of them.

Link?
 
Even the most optimistic economists are predicting massive job insecurity like we've never experienced going forward. Their outcomes just boil down to productivity increases adding growth(that's the good part I guess), income inequality continues to extend(the amount of people living in hardcore slums in the world such as Dharavi are expected to double in a few decades to 2 billion or so), globalization ramps up Mach-a-million more, people constantly entering and leaving the workforce to go train and re-train at schools, stress and anxiety pressures mount to levels we've never seen - that's literally their best case scenario in all the books that I've read. Madness is their best case scenario. So yeah, being healthy in every aspect of life could be paramount. I don't think humans are tooled all that well for excessive change so that should be fun to watch play out.

I think the reality is that *gasp* universal higher education has to be coming down the pike if we are really going all in with this "knowledge" based economic proposition and people are going to have to keep going back to school multiple times throughout their lives to pick up new skills to maintain a decent livelihood. But that's probably going to be a reality post bond market bubble blowup....so we'll worry about that in time. We'll have some fiscal cleaning up to do before then.
 
Even the most optimistic economists are predicting massive job insecurity like we've never experienced going forward. Their outcomes just boil down to productivity increases adding growth(that's the good part I guess), income inequality continues to extend(the amount of people living in hardcore slums in the world such as Dharavi are expected to double in a few decades to 2 billion or so), globalization ramps up Mach-a-million more, people constantly entering and leaving the workforce to go train and re-train at schools, stress and anxiety pressures mount to levels we've never seen - that's literally their best case scenario in all the books that I've read. Madness is their best case scenario. So yeah, being healthy in every aspect of life could be paramount. I don't think humans are tooled all that well for excessive change so that should be fun to watch play out.

I think the reality is that *gasp* universal higher education has to be coming down the pike if we are really going all in with this "knowledge" based economic proposition and people are going to have to keep going back to school multiple times throughout their lives to pick up new skills to maintain a decent livelihood. But that's probably going to be a reality post bond market bubble blowup....so we'll worry about that in time. We'll have some fiscal cleaning up to do before then.

Fun??? Lol. We have different definitions.

There will be increased suffering around the globe and increased government control as we lose our sovereignty. Moore's law. Increased global hacking of national and company secrets, with theft personal identification at almost an exponential rate.

Good times!
 
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