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Warren or Sanders?

Warren or Sanders?

  • Warren

    Votes: 8 33.3%

  • Sanders

    Votes: 11 45.8%

  • Other

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • Total voters
    24
fishonjazz said:
Do you think there were any people who voted 3rd party who wanted anyone but Trump to win who figured he had no chance?
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Of course there are some, but let's put that in perspective. The largest 3rd party voter turnout in almost every state from the 2016 election was from the Libertarian party. How many Libertarian's are going to vote for Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren?

Look back at the election results on Wikipedia for swing states like Florida and Ohio. You could take every non-Libertarian 3rd party vote, give it to Hillary, and Trump would have still won the state. There are a few swing states that had extremely close results in 2016 (Michigan) that would have won if a large percentage of Non-Libertarian 3rd party voters instead voted for Clinton. Are devout Green Party voters going to bail on their party to get Trump out of office? Let's again keep in mind that the Libertarian party is far and away the largest 3rd party. Does the prospect of Bernie Sanders becoming president lead many Libertarians to vote Republican to keep Socialist ideas out of the White House?

Relying on people hating Trump to drive voter turnout is a losing approach. Focus on recapturing the 7% decrease in voter turnout among African-Americans (765,000 votes!). Are Bernie or Warren, White people that are part of the top 1%, going to get those people to get out and vote.............unlikely.
 
Zombie said:
I'd say that healthcare reform is probably the most pressing issue, but there's no reason we couldn't tackle it and student debt at the same time.

Canceling student debt is a no brianer imo. It would create millions of jobs and actually stimulate the economy in a way the Trump tax cuts never could. The more I've become familiar with modern monetary theory the more I've realized Cheney was kind of right when he said "deficits don't matter." The government doesn't need to balance its budget in the way that a household does. In the case of student loan debt the vast majority of it is owed to the US government, we wouldn't even need to disburse any payments to eliminate it.

As for single payer healthcare, we would need to shift the costs currently spent on private insurance and out of pocket costs to a government run program. I'm no economist but I don't understand why every other developed country is capable of having a healthcare system that doesn't drive millions of households into debt and results in better health for their citizens, but the most wealthy country of all time somehow can't.
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I agree that Healthcare should be a top priority for people, and that minor changes can help pay for it. As a Classic Liberal, I've always been very against socializing medicine in any way. However, over the past few years I've changed my stance. I'm a free-market fan, but I don't see a path for this ever being accomplished in the world of Healthcare. Our current system is so bad and so expensive for both individuals and the government that it simply must change (quickly!).

I think you are right that cancelling student debt won't have a direct impact on the debt, but it will have an impact on a large receivable on the Federal Governments balance sheet ($1.5 Trillion). It still seems crazy to me that Liberals want to cancel student loan debt. It seems so anti-progressive since those with student loans (went to college) on average earn more than those who never went to college. My brother-in-law has $250K in student loan debt and now makes outrageous amounts of money. This guy does not need any of his loans forgiven.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
I agree that Healthcare should be a top priority for people, and that minor changes can help pay for it. As a Classic Liberal, I've always been very against socializing medicine in any way. However, over the past few years I've changed my stance. I'm a free-market fan, but I don't see a path for this ever being accomplished in the world of Healthcare. Our current system is so bad and so expensive for both individuals and the government that it simply must change (quickly!).

I think you are right that cancelling student debt won't have a direct impact on the debt, but it will have an impact on a large receivable on the Federal Governments balance sheet ($1.5 Trillion). It still seems crazy to me that Liberals want to cancel student loan debt. It seems so anti-progressive since those with student loans (went to college) on average earn more than those who never went to college. My brother-in-law has $250K in student loan debt and now makes outrageous amounts of money. This guy does not need any of his loans forgiven.
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I guess it just depends on how it's structured. Warren's plan for example applies only to houses with an annual income under $250,000.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
Of course there are some, but let's put that in perspective. The largest 3rd party voter turnout in almost every state from the 2016 election was from the Libertarian party. How many Libertarian's are going to vote for Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren?
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The ones who really hate Trump and wanting him gone is priority #1.


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Zombie said:
I guess it just depends on how it's structured. Warren's plan for example applies only to houses with an annual income under $250,000.
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If they did this, would they have to follow up with implementing free college for all? Doesn't seem like you could write off all those loans and then continue to charge tuition at public universities.

Also, maybe I should stop paying extra principal payments on my student loans.........
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
If they did this, would they have to follow up with implementing free college for all? Doesn't seem like you could write off all those loans and then continue to charge tuition at public universities.

Also, maybe I should stop paying extra principal payments on my student loans.........
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Haha yeah, I mean to me it doesn't make a lot of sense to do one without the other.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
It still seems crazy to me that Liberals want to cancel student loan debt. It seems so anti-progressive since those with student loans (went to college) on average earn more than those who never went to college. My brother-in-law has $250K in student loan debt and now makes outrageous amounts of money. This guy does not need any of his loans forgiven.
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I agree that cancelling all debt seems over-blown. I'm not sure what current interest rates are like, but if we limited undergraduate interest to about 3% (or, say, rate of inflation + 1%), and graduate/professional somewhat higher (2% more), we could make many people's lives easier.

Also, there does need to be reform in debt collection. When people believe themselves to be in compliance with debt-reduction programs, they should be rejected from them at the 90% rate. Something went far too wrong there.
 
One Brow said:
I agree that cancelling all debt seems over-blown. I'm not sure what current interest rates are like, but if we limited undergraduate interest to about 3% (or, say, rate of inflation + 1%), and graduate/professional somewhat higher (2% more), we could make many people's lives easier.
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I agree. Interest rates are way too high on student loans. Part of this is due to the fact that so many borrowers are in default. I can't remember where I read about this, but I believe other countries are much more aggressive in collecting from borrowers in default on educational loans. Garnishing wages, etc.

At the same time, the system itself is set up for many people to fail. If the government allows anyone to borrow money to go to school, and study whatever they want, regardless of employment prospects, you are going to have a lot of people that can't repay. Part of this is on Universities that price these degrees and/or allow students to borrow more than is necessary. Someone with plans to become a schoolteacher should not be able to take out $100K in student loans.

I do agree that the debt-reduction program issue needs to be fixed. A lot of these people borrowed with the assumption that they could have it forgiven down the road. A lot are being rejected, but I'm not sure if that's because the borrower wasn't compliant or because the rules are not well defined or communicated. Maybe it's both.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
I agree. Interest rates are way too high on student loans. Part of this is due to the fact that so many borrowers are in default. I can't remember where I read about this, but I believe other countries are much more aggressive in collecting from borrowers in default on educational loans. Garnishing wages, etc.

At the same time, the system itself is set up for many people to fail. If the government allows anyone to borrow money to go to school, and study whatever they want, regardless of employment prospects, you are going to have a lot of people that can't repay. Part of this is on Universities that price these degrees and/or allow students to borrow more than is necessary. Someone with plans to become a schoolteacher should not be able to take out $100K in student loans.

I do agree that the debt-reduction program issue needs to be fixed. A lot of these people borrowed with the assumption that they could have it forgiven down the road. A lot are being rejected, but I'm not sure if that's because the borrower wasn't compliant or because the rules are not well defined or communicated. Maybe it's both.
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I disagree on teachers specifically. Because I think the standards and teaching required should be much higher and as a result the pay and benefits should be much, much higher. It’s about as important of a job as it gets.

But you have a point.
 
Stoked said:
I disagree on teachers specifically. Because I think the standards and teaching required should be much higher and as a result the pay and benefits should be much, much higher. It’s about as important of a job as it gets.
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I'd like to see teachers make more money too. That's really besides the point, and really another topic entirely. I just don't think students should be able to take out massive amounts of debt if their profession of choice isn't likely to allow them to repay it.

I can't take out a $500K loan on a $150K house.
 
JazzMan4Life said:
Just curious; as a Canuck why are you so tuned into American politics?
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I follow most large scale elections— I’m following UK and Canadian politics too. Rn we have an election coming up, but our left wing movements are completely in shambles. It might be the most depressing federal election of my lifetime. In 2011 we had Layton, in 2015 the NDP were in the lead for a while. This year it’s a Hillary vs. Mike Pence situation.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
If they did this, would they have to follow up with implementing free college for all? Doesn't seem like you could write off all those loans and then continue to charge tuition at public universities.

Also, maybe I should stop paying extra principal payments on my student loans.........
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forgiving student loans disproportionately impacts people of colour, and puts more money in the hands of black people than any other “reparation” some neoliberal can ever have the chutzpah to come up with. On top of this, it’s paid for by taxes on the extremely wealthy— and a small tax at that. It’s a no brainer.
 
Jazzta said:
Every day that passes I think of Warren more as a way of containing the progressive wing of the dem party, thrown in by the party masterminds.
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I hope so.

I'm kidding, but I don't have any love for "progressives" and I'm not really onboard with their agenda.

I would prefer a "progressive-style" Presidential candidate right now because they would be able to stop the conservatives from advancing their regressive ideology.

Believe it or not I'm still a libertarian at heart, and as my father always told me, the government is best when it can't do anything.

So give me a "progressive-style" President and a Republican Senate and I'll be happy.
 
Gameface said:
I hope so.

I'm kidding, but I don't have any love for "progressives" and I'm not really onboard with their agenda.

I would prefer a "progressive-style" Presidential candidate right now because they would be able to stop the conservatives from advancing their regressive ideology.

Believe it or not I'm still a libertarian at heart, and as my father always told me, the government is best when it can't do anything.

So give me a "progressive-style" President and a Republican Senate and I'll be happy.
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I’m not on board with everything progressive either, but I’m all for cutting unnecessary foreign expenses and spend the money here. I would prefer a libertarian to be behind making this policy a reality but I’ll take a progressive if there’s no other option, as I find it a top priority issue.

But hey if Warren turns out to care more about the american people than Saudi Arabia and what not then go Warren, I’m just not quite sure about her yet.
 
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JazzGal said:
AP News: Bernie Sanders has heart procedure, cancels campaign events

https://apnews.com/eab21e66d7734867b8620fe9efaeb8a2

It will be interesting to see whether Sanders' heart surgery will impact the election. Get well soon!

Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app
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It's not heart surgery. Surgeons don't do this procedure, cardiologists do-- it's a catheter put in someone's artery (femoral, sometimes radial) and then when you get to the artery in question, you place the stent in it do unclog it.
 
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