Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[jazzmanian devil]

Ben, this thread has been goin on as many years as S2 has been on the board. The names may change, but the lame arguments are always the same. As I have said before: It says S2 has a post count of 571, but he really aint never made but one post--571 times.

To be fair he cut on those stupid emoticons, I'd call that an improvement. However the new name seems to be a bit of a stretch, since all the strategy we have heard from him so far is a constant repetition of the brilliant thought that giving fes more playing time on the floor will develop his lazy ukrainian arse.

P.S. a 9 page thread about Kyrylo effin Fesenko is nothing short of ridiculous.

 

[InGameStrategy]

A few years ago in the playoffs, when Fisher was in New York and Deron was injured, Dee Brown, who hardly played at all during the regular season, came in and played with a great deal of poise and energy.

Derek Fisher is probably one of the most damaging examples to your argument that you could think of. During his season with the Jazz, Fisher got completely pwned repeatedly at the 2 spot and averaged about 38% FG for the season (and an underwhelming <31% from the trey), which was probably among the league's worst for starting SGs.

Besides a truly heroic return during the playoffs and perhaps a few other clutch shots, his on-court performance was subpar, and he is one of the greatest examples of the opposite extreme: Sloan overplaying a player despite his truly damaging the team's success. You have just pointed out a better example than any other one that I have shared of the misguided judgment that Sloan has SOMETIMES had in evaluating players, and it is reasonable to infer that Fisher's high character, reputation, and locker-room leadership influenced Sloan (unintentionally; all players want to play) to give DF more minutes than what was optimal for the team. He should've been substantially a backup point guard to Deron, with MAYBE 5 MPG extra alongside D-Will per game plus possibly extra minutes in clutch time.

Same with Price, who was third string behind Deron and Knight a couple years back. He was virtually the best player on the floor in one of the last games against the Lakers that year.

Great. And Price is an excellent example of a player who is useful (beyond giving DW a rest) for specific situations such as annoying Kobe or defending Jason Terry or dunking over Boozer. Your mention of Price is bad example because Fesenko has hustled pretty hard in games--too hard, sometimes, leading to excessive fouls. And if you are suggesting that Price has worked hard off the court, as in practice, then it hasn't paid off to the extent that it ought to, because he is still hovering at a 40% FG (just like Fisher, coincidentally) with very low assist rate for a point guard. So while both Fes and Price have been helpful defensively, at least Fes--even in the limited minutes that he has gotten--has been able to keep his FG percentage above 50% in the past two seasons, and I would reckon that 50% FG for a center is equivalent to 45% FG for a guard.

Neither of them complained that they couldn't play well because Sloan hadn't played them more during the year. Both said that they just worked all year to "be ready" as Sloan asked them to be.

Irrelevant. Fisher averaged 27 MPG. That is far above the 10 MPG or so that I have been saying for a long time that is the minimum to develop players (or keep veterans in game rhythm, for that matter). Also, I don't see that Fesenko has been complaining very much, even though he has logged about half the PT that Ronnie Price did at the same point in his NBA career. Also, most of the time Deron does a good job out there, so there are fewer situations in which Price (or the backup PG) "should" be out there instead of the alternatives. Okur and Boozer and sometimes Millsap (not usually for lack of effort) on the other hand, were more often innefective at the 4/5, and porous interior defense was a primary problem almost every night. Fesenko was a potential mitigation or stopgap for that problem for 10-15 MPG, and Sloan didn't use that resource enough.

Nor do I recall them claiming that they would have been better than Jordan, if only they had played more earlier.

Typical Hopper hyperbole drivel that I have never claimed. For most of this argument, I have stated that Fesenko deserved 10 to 15 minutes per, in large part because few players of any skill level can develop with less time than that. You seem to be going out on some tangent about whether Fisher-Price toyed (pun intended) with complaining to Sloan. As I have laid out in detail above, Fisher should have been kissing Jerry's feet for giving him more time than what was best for the team. That hasn't happened so much for Price, but he should be grateful that a 40%-shooting backup PG who doesn't run the offense very well could stick around for so long.

Zup wit dat, ya figure?

With regard to Price, I recall Sloan sayin that Price proved he should have been played more earlier in the year. But Sloan wasn't sayin that because Price sucked and he wanted him to be better and/or to learn how to try harder. He said it because Price *was* good, and gave it all he had. Big difference.

Absolutely ridiculous that you are following up Fisher example with Price. RP is one of the hardest workers on the court, and he has been a crucial defender at times, but his shooting has been poor and inconsistent. If Price were the standard for effort (sometimes sacrificing his body), then few players would fit.

Pretty much any player on the team but Ronnie Price would be a better example for your argument, given that 5 years and 4 times as many minutes as Fesenko has not been enough for him to turn into a consistent point guard. If anything, I could make an argument that he needed more playing time also because he barely made the 10 minutes per available game threshold, both last year and over his career, and whatever effort he has put forth in practice and off the court hasn't been enough for him to turn into a more reliable shooter or a more prolific distributor. In other words, you have provided me with an example of a player with serious work ethic but either insufficient minutes or talent or both to become a reliable backup--yet another boost for my argument. Given that Fes has shown signs of progress that began toward the end of last season, it is reasonable to predict that Fes's threshold of skill has not been reached. As for Ronnie P, I'm not so sure. At some point, NBA players level off; and he's now 27 years old, vs. a mere 23 1/3 for Fesenko.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Understood Hopper, But How may different ways do we have to try to reply to all those and still get the same thing back? Sometimes enough is enough. I got into this a few times. And each time after hearing the same thing over and over I just said. Ok thats his opinion. So be it. Let see who is right in the end.

Bear in mind, Ben, that very rarely have I actually made a post except in response to someone else (usually Hopper or Unibrow). Hopper's posts probably do vary more than mine because he throws up ideas that greatly vary in their relevance. In many cases, they just provide examples and further evidence for my case; I wouldn't have thought about Harpring or the Atlanta game or Derek Fisher (lolz) without Hopper, and I definitely didn't introduce the weight thing, especially since the information was inconsistent. But the bottom line is that in this thread, it has taken at least two to tango.

 

[InGameStrategy]

To be fair he cut on those stupid emoticons, I'd call that an improvement. However the new name seems to be a bit of a stretch, since all the strategy we have heard from him so far is a constant repetition of the brilliant thought that giving fes more playing time on the floor will develop his lazy ukrainian arse.

. . . except that allocating minutes is one of the most crucial aspects of in-game strategy that a coach has the authority and responsibility to carry out.

P.S. a 9 page thread about Kyrylo effin Fesenko is nothing short of ridiculous.

. . . except that a third big in the 4/5 rotation is a crucial cog to most championship contenders (see Odom playing the 4 for the Fakers and the Wallaces playing 4/5 for Detroit a few years back), and the lack thereof (see Phoenix a few years ago, see a Perkinless celtics last year). Oh, and that it has arguably been Utah's biggest correctable weakness for the past two or three years.

 

[One Brow]

There is still a huge difference between the rate of development at a different position than there is at the rate of development of sitting on the bench. You can still develop shooting, defense, rebounding, even assists. By this point, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you would make such an argument, but the amazement continues.

You can develop all that in pratice, as well.

"Shape" (conditioning) was not a limiting factor at the number of minutes that Fesenko was playing,

According to Sloan, it was.

and Fesenko showed in the playoffs that he was capable of playing more minutes conditioningwise,

Being on the floor for more minutes out of desparation is not the same as being capable due to being in shape. However, according to go4jazz, Fesenko's weight dropped considerably over last season, so he may have been somewhat ready for the minutes by the playoffs.

--which, in this case was a 9-point, 6-RB performance that came on the heels of 15 minutes in a game night before, in which he went 8 and 6.
https://www.nba.com/games/20100221/UTAPOR/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore
https://www.nba.com/games/20100222/ATLUTA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

During the last season, when he was just beginning to get in shape, he was put on the floor for a couple of games when Okur was only availablefor limited minutes.

The article also cites a fellow player saying that Fesenko "has been working hard all year" which really flies in the face of the lack-of-work-ethic ("jackpotting") claims that you have been spewing.

So, he spent only two years goofing off, instead of three. No problem. You might even say last year was his true rookie year.

Don't be silly with semantics. "Equally" doesn't mean giving them all of them the same minutes; it means giving them minutes according to their on-court performance.

Fesenko's performance was uneven, like many "rookies".

Also, it is Sloan's job to make sure that the team has enough on-court experience (based on the constraints of court time) to be able to play when injuries or other situations call for it.

It's Sloan's job to make sure that the players who warrant on-court experience get it. Apparently, until the middle of last season, Fesenko didn't warrant the experience. Now that his "rookie" season is over, he'll be likely to get more minutes.

We've been through this.

Yes, you have a habit of repeating the same assertions.

Fes bears some of the responsibility for not getting minutes due to not being more focused and better conditioned (even though this didn't stop other players (Okur) from playing significant minutes in the past,

Okur's minutes were reduced his first season with the Jazz due to his conditioning (compared to later seasons). They increased after his conditioning improved.

Derek Fisher is probably one of the most damaging examples to your argument that you could think of.

His examples were Dee Brown and Ronnie Price.

Okur and Boozer and sometimes Millsap (not usually for lack of effort) on the other hand, were more often innefective at the 4/5, and porous interior defense was a primary problem almost every night. Fesenko was a potential mitigation or stopgap for that problem for 10-15 MPG, and Sloan didn't use that resource enough.

At best, a case of picking your poison. Fesenko many negatives made his positives difficult to use.

 

[Hopper]

Understood Hopper, But How may different ways do we have to try to reply to all those and still get the same thing back?

Well, Ben, aint none of it really serious, ya know? Just an entertainin diversion. I kinda like seein S2 come up with "reasons" why everything that happens proves everything he says. But, mainly, I'm just lookin for excuses to slap up Eddie Cochran vids.

 

[InGameStrategy]

You can develop all that in pratice, as well.

Only to a point. That's why in football, baseball, and pretty much athletes in any skill sport--including basketball--require time on the field/court to develop. The college level and international league and the development league (not that this in the D-League, they actually play, not just practice) are insufficient to prepare a player. I continue to be puzzled why such a universal concept of on-court / on-field / on-stage development is so foreign to you.

According to Sloan, it was.

Given Sloan's history of poor decisions in substitutions--some of which he has admitted to--that's not saying much.

Being on the floor for more minutes out of desparation is not the same as being capable due to being in shape.

No desperation to be had. Fes had performed on the court repeatedly, the existing frontcourt rotation was getting pwned repeatedly. It would be desperation if Fes was substantially inferior to the status quo.

However, according to go4jazz, Fesenko's weight dropped considerably over last season, so he may have been somewhat ready for the minutes by the playoffs.

He had performed during the season, and Sloan had acknowledged it, so Sloan didn't need to wait for the playoffs.

During the last season, when he was just beginning to get in shape, he was put on the floor for a couple of games when Okur was only availablefor limited minutes.

You whine about redundancy, but you post the same arguments also. Fes wasn't playing long enough to test conditioning, and Okur's conditioning (including agility and speed) was an easy standard for Fesenko to match. So was Millsap's height.

So, he spent only two years goofing off, instead of three. No problem. You might even say last year was his true rookie year.

Given that he hasn't even played 10 minutes * 80 games in the regular season, he's still in his rookie year from an in-game experience perspective. From a conditioning perspective, he was fine mid-season, as the link suggests.
https://www.yougotdunkedon.com/2010/02/2009-2010-nba-regular-season-kyrylo.html

Fesenko's performance was uneven, like many "rookies".

That's what you're gonna get from almost every player at any skill level, from LeBron to Lyde, until you give them minutes. Some of them still don't have the talent, even after being given minutes. Fesenko proved that he did have the talent before this year.

It's Sloan's job to make sure that the players who warrant on-court experience get it. Apparently, until the middle of last season, Fesenko didn't warrant the experience. Now that his "rookie" season is over, he'll be likely to get more minutes.

Yes Fes did; Sloan even said so. And here you are acknowledging "until the middle of last season," which is a step in the right direction--and a big part of my focus, too, as Fesenko was further along in Year 3 than he was in year 2 (unfortunately the limited court time (and, suboptimal discipline) had stunted his rate of progress, even though the signs of his potential and of the need to develop him or somebody else for the C spot were evident long before last year).

Yes, you have a habit of repeating the same assertions.

Only in response to statements from the likes of you--and I tend to add further evidence and/or data and/or analysis, just like I have done in this reply.

Okur's minutes were reduced his first season with the Jazz due to his conditioning (compared to later seasons). They increased after his conditioning improved.[/quote]Great. I'm all for rewarding and penalizing ALL players for their performance. It's part of "equal treatment." Okur averaged about 28 MPG in his first year with the Jazz, and he has averaged about 33 minutes since. But not all of that difference in time is attributable to conditioning, because he was scoring at a significantly lower rate than he has since, and his 3-point shooting was a dismal 27%, and he wasn't off the charts on blocks. (Never has been; he's not a good defender, especially on help D.) Also, it's pretty weak to argue that a player's minutes being cut from 33 to 28 (in retrospect) is a precedent for giving a player only <5 to <6 minutes per available game when, as even you have acknowledged, Fes's conditioning improved during the season (and, as I have pointed out, had several games where he contributed significantly).
https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mehmet-Okur-3811/

His examples were Dee Brown and Ronnie Price.

Yes, and I'm not sure why he brought up Dee Brown. From a talent standpoint, Dee Brown's potential wasn't as clear because of his size. He didn't shoot great, but neither do most point guards. If anything, Dee Brown is yet another example of Sloan not developing backups and of a player who wasn't given enough of a chance to stick, but playing DW as many minutes as possible without hurting his health or foul count was a much more understandable decision than giving nearly all the minutes to Okur (whose defense is consistent in one way--porous) and Millsap (who, despite playing with poise and energy (your words), hasn't been a good matchup against some teams or players).

At best, a case of picking your poison. Fesenko many negatives made his positives difficult to use.

I congratulate you, One Brow, on making some progress toward rationality. If we're picking poisons here, then I guess you are talking about Fesenko as opposed to the alternatives (usually Okur and Millsap). On the court (where it matters, btw), Fesenko's help defense was light years better than Okur's, he was rebounding at almost as high a rate (~0.5 RP30 difference), and he has shown that he is making progress on how to score--just like Okur needed, as shown by his truly abysmal sub-43% FG% in his first season, when he had twice as many regular-season minutes as Fesenko has had in total.

 

[Ben10]

Well, Ben, aint none of it really serious, ya know? Just an entertainin diversion. I kinda like seein S2 come up with "reasons" why everything that happens proves everything he says. But, mainly, I'm just lookin for excuses to slap up Eddie Cochran vids.

LOL, Best and probably the most honest answer in this thread.

 

[sirkickyass]

Fes was great tonight. If that baby hook goes down consistently he'll be good enough on offense to keep defenses honest and it will be hard to keep him off the floor.

 

[Hopper]

Fess is now DA MAN, sho nuff!

 

[One Brow]

Only to a point. That's why in football, baseball, and pretty much athletes in any skill sport--including basketball--require time on the field/court to develop.

Now that Fesenko is ready, he'll probably start getting that time.

I continue to be puzzled why such a universal concept of on-court / on-field / on-stage development is so foreign to you.

Puzzlement over mythical concepts is counter-productive.

Given Sloan's history of poor decisions in substitutions--some of which he has admitted to--that's not saying much.

YOur confusion of humility with ability is amusing.

No desperation to be had.

Okur was out in the first game, retruned for limited minutes in the second. The choice was between Fesenko and Koufos. At that point, Fesenko is the choice, but it is out of desparation.

Fes wasn't playing long enough to test conditioning,

Sloan, being on the bench, could see him struggling fairly quickly when he weighed over 300 pounds.

and Okur's conditioning (including agility and speed) was an easy standard for Fesenko to match.

After his first season here, conditioning has not been an issue for Okur.

Given that he hasn't even played 10 minutes * 80 games in the regular season, he's still in his rookie year from an in-game experience perspective. From a conditioning perspective, he was fine mid-season, as the link suggests.
https://www.yougotdunkedon.com/2010/02/2009-2010-nba-regular-season-kyrylo.html

He could make a dunk, so his conditioning was good? Seriously?

Fesenko proved that he did have the talent before this year.

I don't recall anyone questioning Fesenko had the talent to play. Sloan never did.

(unfortunately the limited court time (and, suboptimal discipline) had stunted his rate of progress,

What stunted Fesenko's progress was Fesenko's weight, consistently over 300 pounds for 2 1/2 seasons.

Only in response to statements from the likes of you--and I tend to add further evidence and/or data and/or analysis, just like I have done in this reply.

Your continued confusion of anecdote and evidence indicates shallow thinking. Tht's very bluesfannish of you.

But not all of that difference in time is attributable to conditioning, because he was scoring at a significantly lower rate than he has since, and his 3-point shooting was a dismal 27%, and he wasn't off the charts on blocks.

Conditioning plays into all those things. You can't hit three or time blocks when you're out of breath.

Yes, and I'm not sure why he brought up Dee Brown.

If you read the post carefully, and stop being so bluesfannish, it may become clear.

I congratulate you, One Brow, on making some progress toward rationality. If we're picking poisons here, then I guess you are talking about Fesenko as opposed to the alternatives (usually Okur and Millsap). On the court (where it matters, btw), Fesenko's help defense was light years better than Okur's, he was rebounding at almost as high a rate (~0.5 RP30 difference), and he has shown that he is making progress on how to score--just like Okur needed, as shown by his truly abysmal sub-43% FG% in his first season, when he had twice as many regular-season minutes as Fesenko has had in total.

It's says so much that, despite all the negatives Millsap and Okur bring, Fesenko's balnce has been even more negative. Here's hoping he gets it turned around.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Now that Fesenko is ready, he'll probably start getting that time.

He was ready no later than last season. Evidence of this (mostly not introduced by me) showed that his focus, discipline, practice performance AND on-court performance were all improved and substantive by the middle of last season. And Sloan mentioned publicly that it would be good to get him more minutes. But he didn't. Result? Utah had an inexperienced C in the playoffs who held his own in nearly every game in the playoffs but wasn't able to do more than that. And his deficiencies are mostly experience related. He averaged 18 MPG in the playoffs, so conditioning relative to 5 to 10 MPG wasn't an issue; he didn't magically become "in shape" in April or May. He was ready for more time before then, and his performance in the playoffs only confirmed that. You are disingenuous if you claim otherwise.

Puzzlement over mythical concepts is counter-productive.

Correct. My puzzlement over your mythical concepts that a player can develop without on-court time is disproven not only in the NBA but also in pretty much every other team sport.

YOur confusion of humility with ability is amusing.

Humility really has nothing to do with my comment about Sloan's poor subsitution patterns unless the reason for them is lack of humility rather than good old-fashioned stubbornness or inattention to detail.

Okur was out in the first game, retruned for limited minutes in the second. The choice was between Fesenko and Koufos. At that point, Fesenko is the choice, but it is out of desparation.

Again, it's not desperation if Fesenko's on-court contribution is similar to--or arguably superior to--Okur's. Given Okur's poor ability to control the paint, Fesenko wasn't desperation at all. If he had gotten another 5 MPG during the regular season, he wouldn't have been merely minding the store; he would've made an impact. Your contined implied defense of playing Okur (and Millsap for 28 MPG at the expense of developing a backup center--clearly a bigger need) is illogical.

Sloan, being on the bench, could see him struggling fairly quickly when he weighed over 300 pounds.

We've been through this. He was not getting beaten on the court. At 300 pounds, he had better speed and agility than Okur at 250, and far better height to deter shots than Millsap at 6'8" (at best).

After his first season here, conditioning has not been an issue for Okur.

Now you have really exposed your ignorance (further). Okur's defense has continued to be poor since the first season. His help defense has been abysmal. His shot-blocking is subpar for a center. This isn't just my opinion; as recently as last season, Okur received an honorable mention for one reporter's "No-defense team," putting him among the 10 or 15 worst defenders in the NBA.
https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...am-starring-turkoglu-maggette-and-jeff-green/

Against Kendrick Perkins--who is known for his defense anyway--MO was called a "lump of nothing" defensively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-qJrsXZPRk

So it's really sad for Okur if conditioning (or strength) is a problem and yet he is still known as a pathetic defender. Absolutely hilarious that you would claim that Slowkur's conditioning is acceptable.

He could make a dunk, so his conditioning was good? Seriously?

No; but it's the best I had readily available. There aren't a lot of highlights of Fesenko because he's averaged about 3 minutes per available game (633 / a conservative 210) during his first three years. But here's a sign of his agility from a year ago in a move that Okur could only dream of doing. Even though Fes didn't block the
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tarzvkclaY

Your defense of Okur's conditioning and your denial of Fesenko's adequate conditioning prior to this year is absolute hogwash and a sign that you are just providing blind, reflexive statements that are short and nonsubstantive.

I don't recall anyone questioning Fesenko had the talent to play. Sloan never did.

Good. There is hope amidst your delusion. You have acknowledged that he was in improved condition last year, and you acknowledge that he has talent.

He was making shots in practice (just like CJ and KK were, btw). Utah needed a backup center.

What stunted Fesenko's progress was Fesenko's weight, consistently over 300 pounds for 2 1/2 seasons.

Again, his weight wasn't holding him back because he wasn't playing enough time to test that weight, and he still was more agile and faster than Okur. And you have continued to confirm your acknowledgement that he was in shape by the middle of last season. Thus the onus was fully on Sloan--not just partially as before--to play him. And he didn't. Everybody knew the Lakers were coming. Millsap could develop (wait; you don't believe in on-court development) with 20-25 MPG. Sloan dropped the ball.

Your continued confusion of anecdote and evidence indicates shallow thinking. Tht's very bluesfannish of you.

I'll take my arguments over your continued lack of providing anecdote or evidence. Just because you say it enough times doesn't make it true.

Conditioning plays into all those things. You can't hit three or time blocks when you're out of breath.

Problem is that he wasn't getting beaten on the court because of conditioning. And Fes--even with his lack of experience, was "timing blocks" at a greater rate than Okur. So if anything, Okur was the more poorly conditioned (and poorly focused defensively) on the court.

The rest of your post is merely repetition of yourself, so I won't address it.