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We Got Swindled by Sexton (And Eddie Zero Sucks)

Saint Cy of JFC said:
Why wouldnt Utah turn down that deal in July? They were angling for Grimes and more picks. They thought the Knicks were suckers (everyone did). Then the Knicks got mad and tried some power plays. They ****ed around and found out (enter that meme graph that I would get infracted for posting). I have no idea how this is some unbelievable spin that makes the Knicks look good. It's very believable and does not make the Knicks look good.
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It doesn't make them look good. But it gives them an excuse and shifts blame. The PREMIER reason WWW and Leon Rose were hired was for them to bring stars to the Knicks, something they haven't been able to do for the last decade. And then they had the chance to get a hometown hero who wanted to be there, who spent the whole summer in NY sublty and sometimes not so subtly promoting his return to NY. The whole media spent the whole summer saying Mitchell is NYK's to lose and that they are the overwhelming favorite to get him. And then they didn't. The one thing they were brought in to do they couldn't do with the easiest deal possible for them - supposedly noone else bidding, NYK having all the picks and ...leverage. And then all those supposedly amazing offers that they made started leaking and leaking primarily from one source - CAA represented Woj! Remove all the reports from Woj about make believe trade offers that supposedly were made by NYK and refuted by the Jazz. He's pretty much the only one who is reporting that anything in the realm of RJ+3 picks was offered. ALL reports BEFORE that offer fell through were that 1. they didn't want to include RJ, 2. they didn't want to include 3 unprotected picks.... This is SO OBVIOUSLY A SPIN... to excuse Leon Rose and CAA's incompetence in that trade negotiation.
 
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stitches said:
It doesn't make them look good. But it gives them an excuse and shifts blame. The PREMIER reason WWW and Leon Rose were hired was for them to bring stars to the Knicks, something they haven't been able to do for the last decade. And then they had the chance to get a hometown hero who wanted to be there, who spent the whole summer in NY sublty and sometimes not so subtly promoting his return to NY. The whole media spent the whole summer saying Mitchell is NYK's to lose and that they are the overwhelming favorite to get him. And then they didn't. And then all those supposedly amazing offers that they made started leaking and leaking primarily from one source - CAA represented Woj! Remove all the reports from Woj about make believe trade offers that supposedly were made by NYK and refuted by the Jazz. He's pretty much the only one who is reporting that anything in the realm of RJ+3 picks was offered. ALL reports BEFORE that offer fell through were that 1. they didn't want to include RJ, 2. they didn't want to include 3 unprotected picks.... This is SO OBVIOUSLY A SPIN... to excuse Leon Rose and CAA's incompetence in that trade negotiation.
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1. Mitchell was not in NYK all summer. He spent a lot of time in Miami, even playing Miami Pro-Am games.
2. Just because CAA represents Woj does not mean everything that involves CAA clients from Woj is a lie. There can be wording that spins things to be more favorable, but the facts are the facts at the end of the day. Woj has to keep relationships with all teams. Him flat out lying wouldnt help him curry favor with the Jazz, who he has always had a good relationship with in the past. I get the Spooky Mulder X-Files conspiracy theories, but they dont always exist.
3. How are you deciding what is a spin and what isnt a spin? Maybe all the reports about them not wanting to include RJ was the spin.
4. It also makes sense that Utah rejecting that offer led to a lot of the early reports of Utah not being interested in RJ.

At the end of the day I can only go off common sense and the amalgamation of everything that was reported by the generally reputable sources.

It makes sense that Utah was declining solid offers early in hopes to get a better offer. IT makes sense that NYK would offer RJ. It makes sense that NYK was playing hardball and reducing the offer as time went on and it seemed like no one else was seriously joining the race.
 
Also, it makes much more sense that NYK offered Mitchell Robinson in the trade and Utah declined than Utah asking for Mitchell Robinson in a trade.

Why would the Jazz want Robinson, a guy they would have to pay a pretty decent sized contract (at least the same one he got from NYK, if not higher), when they just got Kessler in the trade from Gobert?
 
I don’t think that was a legit offer. That was most definitely some spin from Leon Rose to try and save face but it made him look even dumber.
 
Also why is Woj being accused of spinning things to make NYK look better and not Ian Begley, the guy whose entire career is based off his access to the Knicks? Woj has much much much more power to get the truth and report it than any reporter does. That comes with a price that probably means favorable wording/spins, but overall he reports facts because he has that much power.

Maybe Ian was trying to get out ahead of Utah's decline on the Knicks offer for the Knicks.

"Oh the Knicks didnt offer this and get rejected, Utah offered it and we rejected"

Overall I just trust the truth to be reported more accurately after the fact than in the middle of the negotiations.
 
The Knicks offer the Woj reported deal, Utah rejects.

Ian Begley goes out for damage control. Utah offered us this, but we rejected it because we love RJ.

The Knicks then proceed to lower the offers after they established to the media they rejected the offer Utah *supposedly* made.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
1. Mitchell was not in NYK all summer. He spent a lot of time in Miami, even playing Miami Pro-Am games.
2. Just because CAA represents Woj does not mean everything that involves CAA clients from Woj is a lie. There can be wording that spins things to be more favorable, but the facts are the facts at the end of the day. Woj has to keep relationships with all teams. Him flat out lying wouldnt help him curry favor with the Jazz, who he has always had a good relationship with in the past. I get the Spooky Mulder X-Files conspiracy theories, but they dont always exist.
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I'm not saying everything is a lie. I'm saying he has a history of doing damage control/PR spin for his friends and smear jobs for those he's not in good relations with. In general I trust him with verifiable information, I don't trust him with "NYK offered the world in July and Utah refused" report in September. Just ask yourself - in whose interest is it for this to be out there in September. Who the hell cares what NYK offered in July in September after a deal falls through. This was one of his very first tweets after he was done with the details of the deal. It's so obvious Rose called him and told him this for damage control. This was not some report coming days or weeks after the deal when he's done some reporting and asked around about how negotiations developed over the summer. This was tweeted an hours if not minutes after the CLE-UTA deal.

Saint Cy of JFC said:
3. How are you deciding what is a spin and what isnt a spin? Maybe all the reports about them not wanting to include RJ was the spin.
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Because it makes more sense to me and it's supported by NYK insiders who reported that offer as something the Jazz were asking for and NYK refused at the time it was happening... rather than when PR spin was needed... TWO MONTHS AFTER.

Saint Cy of JFC said:
4. It also makes sense that Utah rejecting that offer led to a lot of the early reports of Utah not being interested in RJ.

At the end of the day I can only go off common sense and the amalgamation of everything that was reported by the generally reputable sources.

It makes sense that Utah was declining solid offers early in hopes to get a better offer. IT makes sense that NYK would offer RJ. It makes sense that NYK was playing hardball and reducing the offer as time went on and it seemed like no one else was seriously joining the race.
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At the end of the day we will never really know what was offered and when. The only thing we know for sure is that NYK signed RJ Barrett one day and the next day the Jazz accepted the CAVs offer.
 
stitches said:
1. I'm not saying everything is a lie. I'm saying he has a history of doing damage control/PR spin for his friends and smear jobs for those he's not in good relations with. In general I trust him with verifiable information, I don't trust him with "NYK offered the world in July and Utah refused" report in September. Just ask yourself - in whose interest is it for this to be out there in September. Who the hell cares what NYK offered in July in September after a deal falls through. This was one of his very first tweets after he was done with the details of the deal. It's so obvious Rose called him and told him this for damage control. This was not some report coming days or weeks after the deal when he's done some reporting and asked around about how negotiations developed over the summer. This was tweeted an hours if not minutes after the CLE-UTA deal.


2. Because it makes more sense to me and it's supported by NYK insiders who reported that offer as something the Jazz were asking for and NYK refused at the time it was happening... rather than when PR spin was needed... TWO MONTHS AFTER.


3. At the end of the day we will never really know what was offered and when. The only thing we know for sure is that NYK signed RJ Barrett one day and the next day the Jazz accepted the CAVs offer.
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1. Because it's information that Woj can report for clicks and views. He probably couldn't report it earlier (at the behest of CAA/Knicks) because it wouldn't help them in their negotiations while it was happening.

2. NYK insiders are getting their information straight from NYK most likely. They are more prone to spins than a powerhouse national reporter. *Also not saying they are intentionally spinning, but their sources are going to be overwhelmingly NYK sources, not a mix of UTA/NYK like Woj likely has.

3. Agreed
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
1. Because it's information that Woj can report for clicks and views. He probably couldn't report it earlier (at the behest of CAA/Knicks) because it wouldn't help them in their negotiations while it was happening.

2. NYK insiders are getting their information straight from NYK most likely. They are more prone to spins than a powerhouse national reporter. *Also not saying they are intentionally spinning, but their sources are going to be overwhelmingly NYK sources, not a mix of UTA/NYK like Woj likely has.

3. Agreed
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I also think it’s important to note the CAA Woj connection is a mutually beneficiary relationship… they don’t command him to do everything they say… he selectively helps them when he can… he gets info. Woj tries to play all sides of the fence… if he did only CAA business he loses a lot of power… unless I missed it I don’t think he’s like an owner at CAA so ultimately he just wants as much news as possible flowing his way cuz that’s what ESPN pays him for… so he will paint things positively in some instances to help them but it’s not like he can’t also go against what they’d like… I just think there is a power dynamic that people have backwards… like Woj is supposed to do everything CAA says and it’s likely Woj holds more power in that relationship than CAA.
 
Every single piece of information out of New York was "We can only offer two picks because we need that extra pick in two years to trade for the next star (once the 2031 pick became available.)" I listened to so much Knick stuff and podcasts and this was the overarching theme to everything. They were certain they could squeeze the Jazz and keep their powder dry for the NEXT deal.

I remember when the trade happened, they guy from Knicks TV heard the deal and said. "That was a strong offer, we probably couldn't have matched that."

Personally, I really coveted that 2023 Dallas pick and would have taken a slightly protected 2027 pick if that was thrown in, but like I said, if the deal was only two unprotected FRP and no other picks or even counting that Dallas pick as a third, I'm not answering the phone again. New York didn't wish to hand over the 2027 pick and it is understandable based on their desire for the next deal.

Finally, Woj isn't "the best" because of how accurate and detailed he is. He's known for getting it first. That is why I'm not really interested in his 2-month-old reconstruction of deals. That isn't his wheelhouse. The Atlantic is a good place to go for the post-mortem stuff. They had nothing about the previous offers.
 
framer said:
Every single piece of information out of New York was "We can only offer two picks because we need that extra pick in two years to trade for the next star (once the 2031 pick became available.)" I listened to so much Knick stuff and podcasts and this was the overarching theme to everything. They were certain they could squeeze the Jazz and keep their powder dry for the NEXT deal.

I remember when the trade happened, they guy from Knicks TV heard the deal and said. "That was a strong offer, we probably couldn't have matched that."

Personally, I really coveted that 2023 Dallas pick and would have taken a slightly protected 2027 pick if that was thrown in, but like I said, if the deal was only two unprotected FRP and no other picks or even counting that Dallas pick as a third, I'm not answering the phone again. New York didn't wish to hand over the 2027 pick and it is understandable based on their desire for the next deal.

Finally, Woj isn't "the best" because of how accurate and detailed he is. He's known for getting it first. That is why I'm not really interested in his 2-month-old reconstruction of deals. That isn't his wheelhouse. The Atlantic is a good place to go for the post-mortem stuff. They had nothing about the previous offers.
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Bloggers/Podcasters/Fans speculating is not information.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Bloggers/Podcasters/Fans speculating is not information.
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Furthermore, taking three picks and two swaps leaves them with as many as two of their own picks to trade outright, not to mention all of the other picks they own from other teams.

In other words, needing a pick or two would not prevent a deal from happening on either end.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Furthermore, taking three picks and two swaps leaves them with as many as two of their own picks to trade outright, not to mention all of the other picks they own from other teams.

In other words, needing a pick or two would not prevent a deal from happening on either end.
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The bottom line is both sides walked away from a deal due to a top-5 protection on their third pick and Quentin Grimes. I personally wouldn’t have done that and in the end we still got a great deal but we don’t have to ride the front offices dick about everything we can’t point out that they might have taken an inferior offer for whatever reason they saw fit.
 
Gotta love the average fan approach.

*player has bad game* he's terrible, he's a scrub, question why does he get heavy minutes.

It's the NBA and nobodies perfect. I Remember Mike Conley's first season here. Took him forever to get in the groove, but fans were writing him off as washed up.

The Sex-machine will be serving up some sex-ed once he gets his bearings back. Takes time.
 
The Fresh Prince said:
Gotta love the average fan approach.

*player has bad game* he's terrible, he's a scrub, question why does he get heavy minutes.

It's the NBA and nobodies perfect. I Remember Mike Conley's first season here. Took him forever to get in the groove, but fans were writing him off as washed up.

The Sex-machine will be serving up some sex-ed once he gets his bearings back. Takes time.
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I'll gladly be wrong.

I'm not to the point of being a Sexton hater yet. I'm just currently a Sexton doubter.
 
I think if he's going to get back to what he was it will take time. New team new system and confidence from an injury etc. He has shown he's a solid shooter from 3 let's see if the rest of his game starts to click.
 
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