What did KOC know and when?

[Hopper]

I am so tired of hearing this accusation....For those that think the Jazz didn't offer a contract to these players before their exploring FA...

Agree on both counts, Marcus. It's laughable. At the same time the presumptous and speculative attacks on the Jazz get a little wearisome, the humor of it all nothwithstandin.

Check out my sig, eh, JazzHaterz!?

 

[Archie Moses]

My inside friend hung out with DWill last week and DWill told him that he was more excited about this up coming season than any other season he's played in so far. I'm guess they've been working on this for a while.

 

[Hopper]

My inside friend hung out with DWill last week and DWill told him that he was more excited about this up coming season than any other season he's played in so far. I'm guess they've been working on this for a while.

Well, I bet your pal aint hung round with DWill as much as Borat, and them, eh, Archie, because they KNOW, for a stonecold fact, that Deron looks, acts, sounds, and most importantly of all, IS extremely unhappy, pessimistic, and dissatisfied with this team, ya know?

They have, in fact, PROVED it, see what I mean?

 

[Archie Moses]

Well, I bet your pal aint hung round with DWill as much as Borat, and them, eh, Archie, because they KNOW, for a stonecold fact, that Deron looks, acts, sounds, and most importantly of all, IS extremely unhappy, pessimistic, and dissatisfied with this team, ya know?

They have, in fact, PROVED it, see what I mean?

Well, that's not what he was telling my friend when they played 18 together.

 

[Hopper]

Well, that's not what he was telling my friend when they played 18 together.

Betcha Borat done played at least 36.

 

[Harcher]

Good analysis.

We know KOC tried to move up to ostensibly get Cousins. When that didn't happen, I think he had the FA bigs and those who were supposedly on the trading block ranked in order. It's no secret Minny has wanted to trade Al. They would have taken something at the deadline had a good deal arisen.

Pretty sure Greg/KOC had already made up their mind re: Carlos. Sure, I guess they'd take him back at $10M if there was no market. But 99.9% chance he'd go elsewhere. But it's a PR game, don't bad-mouth him; you never know when you might have to deal with Pelinka again on another client.

KOC was undoubtedly working the phones, lining up Plan B-Z scenarios. But really, he couldn;t do much until Boozer made his deal (and he did a S&T to get a TPE and/or picks, like all teams try to do). And his hands have been tied in regards to the MLE - had to keep the entire amount open until someone made an offer for Wesley, or Wesley's agent did a deal with the Jazz.

Portland making an offer on Saturday to Wesley was a TREMENDOUS break. Dallas was SOOOOOOOO close to making the deal for Al. Imagine if Portland had waited a few days. KOC would be calling Harrington instead of doing the deal for Jefferson.

Kudos to KOC and a BIG THANKS to the Millers for stepping up to the plate.

I do think the scenario that has played out was plan B. Plan A was a trade up scenario. but nearing draft day it was becoming clear to us armchair GM's there wasn't much option to move - all teams were dug into their positions quite well and jazz didn'thave much to offer.

So plan B - was as plain as KOC and Carlos saying together, openly - yes it is over here. We know you are going to get more than we are prepared to offer and we would like to assist you in getting EVEN MORE. So this was in the works since Draft day -2 or so. That is why Hayward was drafted. And Korver was gone at that point. (KOC would have plenty of data on how much the market would bear for him i think and he is not worth paying in Jazz system at the moment.)

With respect to Wes, i would think the Portland offer and anything like it was news to KOC day of or day before. I wonder what KOC's rebuttal was something like "stay with us and play a large part for $25M" and Wes said - nope, you better get closer than that and KOC said no thanks. What would you have done if you were in Wes's shoes? Hard to say for me becuase i'm so intrenched as a fan, but $25M and STARTING would have been worth it to me to stay.

 

[cowhide]

And the "fact" that KOC did not make any offer to Millsap and Matthews is something you learned where, exactly?

From what I read in the paper KOC was quoted several times that they were waiting for offers. Please show me anywhere the Jazz made an offer to Millsap or Wes before any other team did. Your homerism is getting ridiculous.

 

[Harcher]

Are you guys trying to make KOC out to be some genius? It has been on the Internet that the Wolves were looking to deal Jefferson for awhile now. KOC did a good job getting the trade exception but he has done a poor job managing the finances and negotiating deals. The Jazz basically let Boozer walk because they had no choice because they mismanaged the salary cap (giving AK his contract and extending Okur). Letting Milsap and Matthews find market value instead of offering them deals was also a mistake. I am a big fan of Jefferson. I wanted the Jazz to draft him. I am happy he is on the team but KOC sucks as a negotiator. He gave up two first to get a guy who the other team didn't want anymore. So because of his moves the Jazz receive Jefferson and lose Boozer, possibly Matthews, Brewer and two first. One of those picks could be a lotto pick and if KOC keeps mismanaging the team and DW leaves then we might have given another lotto pick away. So I am happy that the Jazz filled Boozer's spot but it came at a higher price than some of you want to admit.

I think KOC is not a genius; just navigating the current situation.

Carlos was let go. Fired in essence, if you want to hyperbolize it abit. He, while a very good player, is not the fit for the Jazz at the market price he can command. . IF the Jazz were 1 basket away from beating the lakers in 7 game series, Carlos would be resigned. The CB experiment is over. AJ experiment is now commencing. KOC is not a genius and absolutely knows that AJ is THE ANSWER, but he knows, as we can all see, that AJ is a great option to try.

Brewer was let go. Fired in essence, if you want to hyperbolize it abit... if Brew comes back here and takes $2-3 year - maybe he's worht that. But his original intent was $5-7 to re-up with the Jazz. So Jazz let him go.

Korver was let go...

Now if you want to say KOC is bad for getting those players in the first place then, that would be the argument.

Mathwes is a shocker to all. I'm in agreement with Hopper that we don't have any REAL evidence that KOC simply didn't negotiate. As noted, Wes said publicly he'd go see what is out there. The Jazz could have (and probably did - but we don't know either way) offered something of: "What do i have to do to get you to into a a Jazz uni today."

Ask yourself if you think Millsap's deal is worth it now? I was shocked at how much shock there was to his value - even after all the internet forum stuff pegged him at a 6-$8m a year guy, he got about that amount. How is letting the market decide what the value is such a bad negotiatioin tactic - WHEN after all is completed everyone feels win-win. KOC says "Paul you've found out the market says XYZ. Well we feel the same and will support you in that - let's hug. " With the temperamental nature of NBA players these days and the precarious place locker rooms are, i feel that is a very reasonable, full-picture strategy to signing RFA's. There is a commonly held belief that if you pay a worker $0.25/hr less than he feels he's worth you get 50% effort. If you pay the same person $0.25/hr higher than he thinks he's worth you get 110% effort. I would guess that Millsap has NO ISSUE with what he feels his worth is.

KOC is no genius but he's doing a pretty good job.

 

[VINYLONE]

That's been widely reported, actually. At least with Matthews. The strategy was that, since he was restricted and any deal would ultimately be up to the Jazz, let other teams dictate the market value for Matthews so that the Jazz wouldn't overpay right out of the gate.

Incorrect. It was widely reported that the front office made an offer to both Fes and Matthews.

 

[Harcher]

From what I read in the paper KOC was quoted several times that they were waiting for offers. Please show me anywhere the Jazz made an offer to Millsap or Wes before any other team did. Your homerism is getting ridiculous.

The only way to know otherwise what KOC did was for him to divulge something like "well, we did offer him 4/16 and he said no so now he's out looking." The fact that the only thing the papers said was "...awaiting offers" doesn't guarantee that a JAZZ OFFER was not tendered. Also, how about you write for us what KOC should have divulged in public for us to see that he was negotiating. I can't imagine anything that should be made public on this front. So KOC uses some different words to essentially say "no comment." That's all.

 

[Harcher]

Incorrect. It was widely reported that the front office made an offer to both Fes and Matthews.

All i'm aware of are "qualifying offers" which are essentially, formulaic, pre canned #'s. So they don't really add to question of whether KOC negotiated or not. Is there more info than this?

 

[Hopper]

From what I read in the paper KOC was quoted several times that they were waiting for offers. Please show me anywhere the Jazz made an offer to Millsap or Wes before any other team did. Your homerism is getting ridiculous.

I read the papers too, and I seem to have a better understanding of what they DON"T say than you do. Your haterizm is gittin ridiculous. A prior poster has already recounted the offer we made to Millsap. Another poster has yet to respond to my request to provide JUST ONE report of the events he claims (as you do) were "widely reported." Scroll up. Mebbe you can provide what he has failed to, eh?

Edit: After catching up on the whole thread, I see that Harcher has already adquately responded to you. Still, feel free to show any "report" which says: "Jazz made no offer to Matthews." It's counter to all common sense to think this would be true. It might as well say "KOC cannot spell his own name." But if you can find where that has been reported, I'll certainly give you credit for findin it, and read it very carefully.