What is the Liberal plan for immigration?

[AlaskanAssassin]

I finally had a chance to watch the most recent Democratic debate and was left wondering what the Democratic Party's stance is on immigration. O'Rourke proposed awarding instant citizenship to over a million currently undocumented or illegal immigrants, and extending that citizenship to immediate family. Warren followed that up by suggesting extending that citizenship to cousins, grand-parents, etc.

There were numerous references to Trump being racist, mostly based on his immigration policy. The moderator even took a shot at conservatives asking "Do you think those that support Trump, and his immigration policy are racist?"

Meanwhile, Trump's immigration record is very similar, possibly even more compassionate towards illegal immigrants than Obama. Deportations are consistent, if not down from the numbers during Obama. Total individuals granted asylum are up. Most of the articles about mistreatment of illegals are the same things that have been happening for decades (not excusing this mistreatment - just pointing out that it's been happening for a long time).

Just wanted to start this thread to see how people on this board envision immigration in the United States moving forward. Open Boarders? Build a wall? End deportations and ICE? Merit based immigration?

Hasn't this historically been an issue that both sides agree on? Obama's quote from 2005, if stated today by our current president, would be considered extremely racist by many:

“We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country.”

I'm legitimately confused about the message the Democrats are sending regarding immigration. Do Democrats actually believe these things, or is this just pandering? Who does the idea of open boarders appeal to, aside from those that can't otherwise gain access to our country? I also wonder if this is an issue further dividing the party. Many moderate liberals like the idea of strong immigration control. Also, a high percentage of immigrants that came to the country legally feel that the rules should be enforced.

Share your thoughts on immigration as it pertains to the Democratic party and our country in general.

 

[Eminence]

I am one of the very few you'll find for open borders and don't find much in common with the Dems on the issue and generally feel that American immigration policy varies very little between the two major parties. The one area I clearly prefer them on compared to the Republicans is rhetoric involving those immigrating.

Your Rand quote nicely applies to immigrants imo. The State telling someone where they can and cannot live (on a near continental scale) is ridiculous to me.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

American immigration policy varies very little between the two major parties.
Your Rand quote nicely applies to immigrants imo. The State telling someone where they can and cannot live (on a near continental scale) is ridiculous to me.

If one party is pushing for open boarders (at least in rhetoric), and the other wants to build a wall to keep people out, I think we can conclude that the two parties have some significant differences in policy.

Not sure if I agree on your interpretation of Rand's quote. Do individuals not have a right to private property, or to ban together and create governments with borders? I might want to live in your garage, but you probably don't want that, thus it is infringing on your rights to have private space. Same concept applies when groups ban together and create the same restrictions.

 

[Archie Moses]

A country is only as strong as it's borders.

That said, as Americans, we often make about black and white while while Latinos/Latinas are an after thought.

I can't imagine America without Latinos/as.

 

[Stoked]

Tbh, I don’t think either side really has any intention of legit plans to fix immigration. It’s a really convenient political weapon.

I’d love to see someone come out and say what specific things they feel are wrong with the immigration system and how to fix them.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

I’d love to see someone come out and say what specific things they feel are wrong with the immigration system and how to fix them.

I like merit based systems that many other countries utilize. I'm all for immigration and I actually think we should increase the amount of immigrants afforded the opportunity to live and work here. We have a workforce shortage in a variety of fields that require technical skillsets. A large percentage of people living here illegally entered the country legally, and outstayed their visa. I don't know specifics of how that works, but a more streamlined system would help. I also don't want our legal system bogged down with immigration cases of people that don't want to be sent out of the country. No easy answer here......

I also want the media and politicians to stop conflating Immigrants with Illegal Immigrants. Just because someone is in favor of strong boarders or enforcing immigration law, doesn't mean you have a problem with Immigrants or others that live here legally.

 

[Eminence]

If one party is pushing for open boarders (at least in rhetoric), and the other wants to build a wall to keep people out, I think we can conclude that the two parties have some significant differences in policy.

Not sure if I agree on your interpretation of Rand's quote. Do individuals not have a right to private property, or to ban together and create governments with borders? I might want to live in your garage, but you probably don't want that, thus it is infringing on your rights to have private space. Same concept applies when groups ban together and create the same restrictions.

I don't think the Dems are calling for anything close to open borders as best I can tell (I'm sure there's a quote from somebody somewhere, but of the serious proposals I've seen from presidential candidates and the like).

When I mentioned rhetoric I meant about how the parties talk about immigrants as people - where I think the Dems do a notably nicer job imo.

I would consider a garage personal property, not private property, but I don't think that was your point (and no garage at this apartment anyways, ahh well). But yes, I agree people have a right to personal property and that extends to some groups formed. I do not think that should extend to groups as loose as US citizens/residents or spaces as large as the US.

 

[Hotdog]

I don't think the Dems are calling for anything close to open borders as best I can tell (I'm sure there's a quote from somebody somewhere, but of the serious proposals I've seen from presidential candidates and the like).

When I mentioned rhetoric I meant about how the parties talk about immigrants as people - where I think the Dems do a notably nicer job imo.

I would consider a garage personal property, not private property, but I don't think that was your point (and no garage at this apartment anyways, ahh well). But yes, I agree people have a right to personal property and that extends to some groups formed. I do not think that should extend to groups as loose as US citizens/residents or spaces as large as the US.

Lets use this as an example.

You have a group of people traveling looking for a place to live. They find land that works. They settle there. They spend year cultivating the land and building things like houses and roads. Eventually the people pitch in for social services. They get all that established. Then one day a few people from somewhere else stumble across the settlement.

Do you think those people should have to ask permission to live with these people who have spent so much time and effort setting up the place so its livable? Do you think the newcomers should have to abide by the same rules as the people living in this settlement? Or would it be ok to just waltz right in without permission, do what you want and call anyone who doesnt like it racist?

 

[One Brow]

There were numerous references to Trump being racist, mostly based on his immigration policy. The moderator even took a shot at conservatives asking "Do you think those that support Trump, and his immigration policy are racist?"

Trump policy of locking up all border crossers, and many asylum seekers, is based in his racism.

Meanwhile, Trump's immigration record is very similar, possibly even more compassionate towards illegal immigrants than Obama.

Obama did not detain people whose only crime was crossing the border. Obama did not split up and detain families of legally present asylum seekers. Trump has done both. There is no reasonable case for calling Trump's policies more compassionate.

Deportations are consistent, if not down from the numbers during Obama. Total individuals granted asylum are up.

The denial rate went up by over 10% in 2017 compared to 2016.

Most of the articles about mistreatment of illegals are the same things that have been happening for decades (not excusing this mistreatment - just pointing out that it's been happening for a long time).

Trump increased both the frequency and severity of the mistreatment, not as an accident, but as a deliberate attempt to keep people from coming.

Just wanted to start this thread to see how people on this board envision immigration in the United States moving forward. Open Boarders? Build a wall? End deportations and ICE? Merit based immigration?

Making getting low-skill work permits easier to get. If someone wants to work in the US's field for the next 20 years, why not?

“We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country.”

Obama managed to say that while acknowledging that immigrants where hard-working and law-abiding members of society, while Trump called them rapists and thieves.

I'm legitimately confused about the message the Democrats are sending regarding immigration. Do Democrats actually believe these things, or is this just pandering?

Here, I largely agree. The Democratic party is pandering, for the most part.

 

[Eminence]

Lets use this as an example.

You have a group of people traveling looking for a place to live. They find land that works. They settle there. They spend year cultivating the land and building things like houses and roads. Eventually the people pitch in for social services. They get all that established. Then one day a few people from somewhere else stumble across the settlement.

Do you think those people should have to ask permission to live with these people who have spent so much time and effort setting up the place so its livable? Do you think the newcomers should have to abide by the same rules as the people living in this settlement? Or would it be ok to just waltz right in without permission, do what you want and call anyone who doesnt like it racist?

Yep, I think they should ask permission. And I think those asked should welcome them. Not too complicated.

 

[bigb]

I’ll be honest and say I don’t love how easy it is to get here illegally. I don’t love how many illegal immigrants there are here.
I would love to see the process of entering (and staying in) legally easier and cheaper. The process of retaining a visa is an absolute joke right now. About two years ago, I was surprised at an experience I was witness to. My daughter’s soccer coach (at the time) was here legally on a work visa from England. It came to renew his visa, and was basically told he couldn’t based on his current status (I honestly don’t know what the problem was). He couldn’t renew it, he was going to have to start over. He got an immigration attorney to help, and was basically told it wasn’t going to happen. The only way he could have a chance was to quit his job and move. Remember, this is a guy who was here legally, working, engaged to an American woman, coaching youth soccer (getting paid to do it), and had no criminal history. That should have been a rubber stamp. Instead, he had to quit his job, quit coaching soccer (he was the best coach she’d had), and move to San Diego (his fiancée took a huge promotion that moved her there) just he could start the “immigration process” over. Why? It’s stupid.
Imagine if it was easy to come here legally? We wouldn’t have this discussion because there would be no need.
I also think the penalties and fines for hiring illegal/undocumented workers should be waaaaaay bigger. If every contractor/landscaper/farmer/factory who employed a workforce of illegals got hit with a much, much higher fine, the problem just might solve itself.


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[Hotdog]

I’ll be honest and say I don’t love how easy it is to get here illegally. I don’t love how many illegal immigrants there are here.
I would love to see the process of entering (and staying in) legally easier and cheaper. The process of retaining a visa is an absolute joke right now. About two years ago, I was surprised at an experience I was witness to. My daughter’s soccer coach (at the time) was here legally on a work visa from England. It came to renew his visa, and was basically told he couldn’t based on his current status (I honestly don’t know what the problem was). He couldn’t renew it, he was going to have to start over. He got an immigration attorney to help, and was basically told it wasn’t going to happen. The only way he could have a chance was to quit his job and move. Remember, this is a guy who was here legally, working, engaged to an American woman, coaching youth soccer (getting paid to do it), and had no criminal history. That should have been a rubber stamp. Instead, he had to quit his job, quit coaching soccer (he was the best coach she’d had), and move to San Diego (his fiancée took a huge promotion that moved her there) just he could start the “immigration process” over. Why? It’s stupid.
Imagine if it was easy to come here legally? We wouldn’t have this discussion because there would be no need.
I also think the penalties and fines for hiring illegal/undocumented workers should be waaaaaay bigger. If every contractor/landscaper/farmer/factory who employed a workforce of illegals got hit with a much, much higher fine, the problem just might solve itself.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

Pretty much been saying this about immigration anytime Ive mentioned it. Seems like a super reasonable approach, but I dont really see that from either side. Its one extreme or another.

About your friend, obviously his "status" could have something to do with it. I support not allowing people to stay if they are trouble makers. Thats the whole point. It should be like a try out.

So many people and generations have spent so much of their lives building this place up. They deserve a voice in the matter. Its not racist, rude, or anything to want a say. In fact it rude the other way. People demanding entry is rude or not asking is rude. So ya, I think it should be fairly easy, but also not easy at the same time. Easy to get in and stay if you can prove a track record of being a good person and someone who helps contribute. So that should be easy, but it turns out to not be easy for some people.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Trump policy of locking up all border crossers, and many asylum seekers, is based in his racism.

Obama did not detain people whose only crime was crossing the border. Obama did not split up and detain families of legally present asylum seekers. Trump has done both. There is no reasonable case for calling Trump's policies more compassionate.

You always manage to put me in the position where I need to defend Trump. I'm not suggesting he's a stand-up guy. However, many of the current policies on immigration were set in place prior to his presidency. You think Obama didn't lock up people crossing the border illegally? Why did he build the cages for exactly?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/

Using Trump and compassionate in the same sentence may be a stretch, but I think Liberals have to admit that there has never been compassionate or ethical treatment of illegal people crossing our border in our country's history.

Obama managed to say that while acknowledging that illegal immigrants where hard-working and law-abiding members of society, while Trump called them rapists and thieves.

Fixed.

 

[NAOS]

My politics are rooted in Labor issues. That means I’m committed to a controlled immigration policy. And, therefore, it also means I support an enforceable border.

Trump has managed to skew this issue so enormously that I, too, am confused about the Dem’s current rationale/reaction-to-Trump

 

[One Brow]

You always manage to put me in the position where I need to defend Trump. I'm not suggesting he's a stand-up guy.

You also don't need to defend him.

However, many of the current policies on immigration were set in place prior to his presidency. You think Obama didn't lock up people crossing the border illegally? Why did he build the cages for exactly?

From what I can tell, the cages were for 1) people who criminal records besides the illegal border crossings, and 2) children who crossed the border without parents or other family members.

... but I think Liberals have to admit that there has never been compassionate or ethical treatment of illegal people crossing our border in our country's history.

On an absolute scale, I agree with you.

Fixed.

Trump also thinks of the legal immigrants and asylum refugees as among the rapists in thieves, so your fix was broken.

 

[JazzyFresh]

You also don't need to defend him.



From what I can tell, the cages were for 1) people who criminal records besides the illegal border crossings, and 2) children who crossed the border without parents or other family members.



On an absolute scale, I agree with you.



Trump also thinks of the legal immigrants and asylum refugees as among the rapists in thieves, so your fix was broken.

So where did they stick the record number of illegals deported at under Obama? Holiday inn? No, in jails and cages. That's why they were built.

 

[One Brow]

So where did they stick the record number of illegals deported at under Obama? Holiday inn? No, in jails and cages. That's why they were built.

Also true. At least late4r in his administration, that record number were people who had committed crimes besides illegal immigration.