Why doesn't Utah have a Lottery?

[Deleted member 365]

Yeah, I must take my position because I wouldn't benefit from the alternative. Principles have nothing to do with it. I'm just an idiot voting myself benefits until the well runs dry.

Funny how you conveniently "forgot" to admit that you only picked out a certain part about the Utah's Foundation Paradox.

Hilarious how you're ignoring so many other posts in this thread that have called you out.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Don't you know that is the way to argue? No one but them ever has an informed decision. We all get it from fox news or something else they hate.

I'll tell you one way you shouldn't argue, is to pick out information and post it as fact while ignoring other information.

Game face said in post 66,

https://www.utahfoundation.org/reports/?page_id=328

Utah’s Education Paradox
October 1, 2004
Utah’s education financing has long been considered an anomaly. A November 1999 Utah Foundation research report, entitled “Utah’s Education Paradox,” included two statistics that were seemingly at odds with each other. It reported that:
Utah spent more of its money on public education than most other states. In terms of spending as a percentage of all state and local government spending, it ranked 3rd in the nation, while in terms of spending as a percentage of personal income, it ranked 2nd.
Utah spent less money on each child’s education than any other state in the nation. Also, Utah’s average class size has been larger than any other state’s.
Utah’s Education Paradox is that even though Utah spends a higher percentage of its budget on education than most other states, it still spends less per student.

Yet, he "conveniently ignored" later on in the exact same article:

The education paradox was more pronounced up through the mid 1990’s than it is today... The paradox is unraveling.

At the same time that the financial paradox is unraveling, another anomaly of Utah’s education system is becoming less dramatic. Utah students have historically achieved above-average results on national tests, in spite of low per-pupil funding.

\

His data is also old.

The latest report states:

https://www.utahfoundation.org/img/pdfs/rr680.pdf

However, by the late 1990s and early 2000s the paradox lessened
as the funding effort slowed. The 2006 report showed that Utah’s
education paradox no longer existed.

This is exactly what's wrong with our society today. Folks (like gameface) will promote their political ideology and agenda at any cost. They'll purposely provide nitpicked data, outdated data, and post dishonestly.

I think people like gameface need to level here and be honest. If we're going to argue here, lets at least be honest.

Run away, like a scared lil puppy.

 

[Stoked]

I'll tell you one way you shouldn't argue, is to pick out information and post it as fact while ignoring other information.

Game face said in post 66,

https://www.utahfoundation.org/reports/?page_id=328



Yet, he "conveniently ignored" later on in the exact same article:

\

His data is also old.

The latest report states:

https://www.utahfoundation.org/img/pdfs/rr680.pdf



This is exactly what's wrong with our society today. Folks (like gameface) will promote their political ideology and agenda at any cost. They'll purposely provide nitpicked data, outdated data, and post dishonestly.

I think people like gameface need to level here and be honest. If we're going to argue here, lets at least be honest.

Run away, like a scared lil puppy.

No ****? Do you carry that soapbox around with you or rent one where ever you go?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Yeah, I must take my position because I wouldn't benefit from the alternative. Principles have nothing to do with it. I'm just an idiot voting myself benefits until the well runs dry.

Well we'll see if you have the same principles when it's your kids sitting in an 85 degree classroom for 20% or 25% of the school year.

I'm not doubting these are your principles right now. I'm just doubting that you'll be so firm on these principles when you are directly affected.

You actually implied that schools don't need air conditioners, saying that they never had them before. I have little doubt that you'll soften on that stance if your own kids are sitting in a packed full, 85 degree classroom every day. Time will tell.

 

[bordelais7]

Wait...we're talking about tax revenues on $9 million in a ~$5 BILLION budget?

Construction costs for Westlake High School went $27 million over budget just a few years back -- take a walk through it sometime. One of the nicest buildings you'll see. Spent a lot of money on designer materials and skylights and atriums. Pretty fun to spend someone else's money.

State-of-the-art climate controls keep the building at a pleasant 71 degrees all day long.

 

[bordelais7]

Also, for what it's worth, as of the 2011 budget year Utah is still top ten in the nation in percentage of budget spent on education (32%).

 

[Gameface]

False.

Why don't you look up the latest data produced by the utahfoundation?

https://www.utahfoundation.org/img/pdfs/rr680.pdf



Utah's demographics are a contributing factor. However, the paradox doesn't exist anymore since spending in education has been diverted to other programs.

I think it's pretty obvious that Utah's legislation has a pro-private/charter school agenda. Make no mistake, there is a strong lobby to divert money from public education and into the coffers of special interest.

So nice job picking out data gameface to promote your opinion. Try using updated data. And try letting facts form your opinions, not pick out outdated information to conform to your opinion.

Hay *******, did you see the post where I said it was something I had heard years ago and that I was looking for information about it? Did you see the other post where I said I wasn't finding anything about it? Then another one saying, well... here's what I could find.

Sorry I only spent 5 min looking, Thriller. It's a pretty minor point and I was going off my memory when I made my initial statement and admitted as much.

Besides, spending last per pupil while Utah taxpayers pay about what every other state taxpayer pays still illustrates the same point. The problem isn't what we're willing to spend on education, it's how many kids are in the system.

Again, pretty minor point in response to salty's pretty minor and slightly off topic point about air conditioning.

My opinion, that schools should all be private and privately funded, has very little to do with how much is spent per pupil or taxpayer. It is based on the notion that what we learn and what we are required to know should not be based on an approved list of knowledge provided by the state. For example, sex education. Some people want their kids to learn about sexuality, sexual preference, birth control, etc. While others would prefer their kids get a biology lesson in human reproduction. Currently people passionately fight about which will be taught to our children, begging the state to pick their side. Or how involved religion and religious practices are involved in school.

The info I tried to provide was trivia.

 

[Gameface]

Well we'll see if you have the same principles when it's your kids sitting in an 85 degree classroom for 20% or 25% of the school year.

I'm not doubting these are your principles right now. I'm just doubting that you'll be so firm on these principles when you are directly affected.

You actually implied that schools don't need air conditioners, saying that they never had them before. I have little doubt that you'll soften on that stance if your own kids are sitting in a packed full, 85 degree classroom every day. Time will tell.

Salty I have maintained my principles through hardship and personal suffering many times. To say that as soon as me or my family suffers I will change my position is false and insulting. The idea that my position can only be held by someone who doesn't understand the reality of the situation is stupid and does not serve you well, besides being completely wrong, of course.

 

[Gameface]

Funny how you conveniently "forgot" to admit that you only picked out a certain part about the Utah's Foundation Paradox.

Hilarious how you're ignoring so many other posts in this thread that have called you out.

You seriously think I passed over more recent and relevant data to prove a point? What point would that be? How would the more recent data contradict the imaginary point you think I was trying to make? You're an idiot.

 

[bigb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhd_dKwxVs

That's a federal offense. That guy's in big trouble.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Hay *******, did you see the post where I said it was something I had heard years ago and that I was looking for information about it? Did you see the other post where I said I wasn't finding anything about it? Then another one saying, well... here's what I could find.

Sorry I only spent 5 min looking, Thriller. It's a pretty minor point and I was going off my memory when I made my initial statement and admitted as much.

Besides, spending last per pupil while Utah taxpayers pay about what every other state taxpayer pays still illustrates the same point. The problem isn't what we're willing to spend on education, it's how many kids are in the system.

Again, pretty minor point in response to salty's pretty minor and slightly off topic point about air conditioning.

My opinion, that schools should all be private and privately funded, has very little to do with how much is spent per pupil or taxpayer. It is based on the notion that what we learn and what we are required to know should not be based on an approved list of knowledge provided by the state. For example, sex education. Some people want their kids to learn about sexuality, sexual preference, birth control, etc. While others would prefer their kids get a biology lesson in human reproduction. Currently people passionately fight about which will be taught to our children, begging the state to pick their side. Or how involved religion and religious practices are involved in school.

The info I tried to provide was trivia.

It took me like 2 minutes to find an updated article. Stop acting as if a simple google search is hard.

It's really not that hard to do what you did, cut and splice information to promote your opinion.

Your very article talks about how the paradox was disappearing. Yet you failed to mention that. You merely quoted the first paragraph yet failed to mention the paragraphs a few spaces below.

And yet, you CONTINUE to plow through with this "imaginary point" in bold. The very source you quoted refuted this! The very source you quoted refuted your bolded statement. It is NOT Utah's demographics. It is NOT the high birth rate/# of students in the system that creates the poor-pupil spending. You criticize others for not reading posts yet you either did the exact same or refuse to believe the very source you quoted.

Now, your opinion underlined is exactly the agenda you were trying to promote.

Hence, why I ask you to just be upfront and honest. Instead of slicing (outdated) information to try and justify poor per pupil spending. Just admit, you don't believe in public education and that's it!

It sure would have saved us a lot of time if you would have just stated that, instead of quoting the Utahfoundation.

 

[Deleted member 365]

You seriously think I passed over more recent and relevant data to prove a point? What point would that be? How would the more recent data contradict the imaginary point you think I was trying to make? You're an idiot.

Stop acting as if your point was imaginary.

Your point was, that Utah's demographics was the #1 factor in low per-pupil spending. Hence, the "paradox."

Yet, the very article you quoted, suggested that this paradox was disappearing due to Utah's lack of funding effort into public education... My article, just a few years newer, proved that the paradox was gone.

Your point isn't imaginary, but an opinion shared by many.

That is, "Utah's low per-pupil spending isn't the fault of the government, taxpayers, or lack of educational funding as a priority... But the direct result of Utah's high birth rate/demographics."

In reality however, this isn't true. Despite Utah's demographics, the funding is still pathetic.