Why Don't the Jazz Sign Better Players to be a Better Team?

[Stifle Tower]

You make my point, sir. Just because they made the playoffs does not mean they were not rebuilding. That is your assumption. It appears they were just rebuilding poorly. Most without tinted glasses would consider trading away of a franchise player (DW) for young talent and firing (err separating) from a guy like Sloan as the start of a rebuild.
Just like now, when they are 'rebuilding', and aren't exactly positioned to get a Top 3 pick. And could end up with a mid lottery pick.
If they are rebuilding, they're not good at it. If they're not rebuilding ... ****.

You trade away a franchise pick if you feel you have no chance of re-signing him. Was OKC rebuilding when they traded away Harden? The Sloan debacle was not rebuilding; he wanted Deron disciplined and Greg didn't back him up like Larry H. would have. Power struggle and Sloan said "**** ***" to the new owner. When you try to compete for the playoffs by replacing veterans with veterans, that is NOT rebuilding. KOC did not try to rebuild. He tried to bring vets in to push for the playoffs.

DL IS rebuilding. And the rebuilding started the summer of 2013 when the GS deal was made and the Jazz told Millsap, Carroll and Foye they should look for a different team.

 

[Jazz Insider]

You trade away a franchise pick if you feel you have no chance of re-signing him. Was OKC rebuilding when they traded away Harden?

3 things:
1. I appreciate the response, sir.

2. OKC didn't trade away their franchise player, they traded away their 6th man. If Utah had Durant and Westbrook, i wouldn't count trading away a 6th man DWill as the begin of a rebuild.

3.Why do you feel the Jazz felt they had no chance of re-signing Deron Williams?

 

[Stifle Tower]

3 things:
1. I appreciate the response, sir.

2. OKC didn't trade away their franchise player, they traded away their 6th man. If Utah had Durant and Westbrook, i wouldn't count trading away a 6th man DWill as the begin of a rebuild.

3.Why do you feel the Jazz felt they had no chance of re-signing Deron Williams?

I don't think they had NO chance, I just feel it was very small. In no particular order (and certainly not all-inclusive)

a. Reportedly, KOC and the Millers met repeatedly with Deron and his agents to get some sense of commitment. Deron never openly said anything one way or another.
b. There had been friction with Deron/Sloan dating back to his rookie season. And sometime around December/January, Deron allegedly stopped running some of Jerry's plays. Media reports said Jerry wanted the authority to discipline Deron and Greg's/KOC's failure to stand by him was the cause of him leaving.
c. Deron was enthusiastic and spoke about getting free agents to come play with him in Utah early in his career. It just didn't happen.
d. Trading for Al was an effort to get Deron to stay after they decided to part ways with Boozer. Deron told Al he was going to make him an all-star. Just didn't happen. The two weren't a great fit.
e. After Sloan quit, I think 90% of the fans and media placed the blame on Deron. I doubt ANY player would want to stay with that cloud hanging over them.
f. Bigger market, chance to win a championship. Jazz would have needed to major roster adjustments, including trying to trade Big Al in order to give Deron a team built around him. it would have taken a few years to do that. In free agency, Deron would have had a chance to pick from among several teams and form a "Big-3" with him as the centerpiece (instant contention - or so everyone thought). And there are owners out there who had the means to go deep into the luxury tax to build a contender. Millers do not.
g. Any money lost by signing a shorter contract with less of a percentage increase year-over-year with Team X vs. Utah could be made up with by more advertising and bigger endorsements by playing in a better or larger market than Utah.

 

[Jazz Insider]

I don't think they had NO chance, I just feel it was very small. In no particular order (and certainly not all-inclusive)

a. Reportedly, KOC and the Millers met repeatedly with Deron and his agents to get some sense of commitment. Deron never openly said anything one way or another.
b. There had been friction with Deron/Sloan dating back to his rookie season. And sometime around December/January, Deron allegedly stopped running some of Jerry's plays. Media reports said Jerry wanted the authority to discipline Deron and Greg's/KOC's failure to stand by him was the cause of him leaving.
c. Deron was enthusiastic and spoke about getting free agents to come play with him in Utah early in his career. It just didn't happen.
d. Trading for Al was an effort to get Deron to stay after they decided to part ways with Boozer. Deron told Al he was going to make him an all-star. Just didn't happen. The two weren't a great fit.
e. After Sloan quit, I think 90% of the fans and media placed the blame on Deron. I doubt ANY player would want to stay with that cloud hanging over them.
f. Bigger market, chance to win a championship. Jazz would have needed to major roster adjustments, including trying to trade Big Al in order to give Deron a team built around him. it would have taken a few years to do that. In free agency, Deron would have had a chance to pick from among several teams and form a "Big-3" with him as the centerpiece (instant contention - or so everyone thought). And there are owners out there who had the means to go deep into the luxury tax to build a contender. Millers do not.
g. Any money lost by signing a shorter contract with less of a percentage increase year-over-year with Team X vs. Utah could be made up with by more advertising and bigger endorsements by playing in a better or larger market than Utah.

In other words, it appears you could also say "because the Jazz failed to build a contending-caliber team around him." Is that fair, in some respect, sir? I also seem to recall DW was also turned off by mgmt not spending enough to keep/acquire players.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yet the 'rebuild' continues, and the wallet remains closed.

I thought the jazz opened thier wallet when they paid Hayward, favors, and Burks

 

[Stifle Tower]

In other words, it appears you could also say "because the Jazz failed to build a contending-caliber team around him." Is that fair, in some respect, sir? I also seem to recall DW was also turned off by mgmt not spending enough to keep/acquire players.

Boozer, Okur, matching for Millsap, trading for Jefferson...the Jazz opened their wallets. Sure, there were a couple decisions Deron didn't like: his buddy Dee didn't make the team, they couldn't reach an agreement with Brewer so they traded him for an asset rather than getting nothing in return for him. Hmmm...I wonder why no one ever mentions that one? They're quick to point out when the Jazz "let" someone go as a free agent. Also letting Matthews go instead of paying $9M to keep him (salary + luxury tax). Oh more than $9M, because they wouldn't have gotten anything back in revenue sharing that year.

It was reported that early in Deron's career they used to ask for his opinion about certain players. Not sure when that stopped. But the team DID make it all the way to the WC Finals. Pretty certain that qualifies as building a contender around Deron. Once you start letting a player make all the personnel decisions, you may as well sell the franchise. Deron liked Carlos - and why not, it was an easy assist on offense? That KOC decided to let him go was not a popular decision. But I think 95% of us on this board could see the obvious: a team with Carlos starting was not going to win a championship.

Deron, the GM, has done a wonderful job in Brooklyn. He got what he wanted and failed to deliver. And now Brooklyn is desperately trying to dump him. Not many takers...even Sacramento is demanding another good asset be included in any deal.

 

[Stifle Tower]

JazzInsider,
Really, I think our difference is just in semantics.

1. I consider the Jazz doing a major rebuild after Stockton, Malone and Hornacek left, which really began in signing Harpring, then Okur, Boozer and ended with the drafting of Deron.

2. After Deron was traded, you consider that a rebuild began. Call it a rebuild; I'll call it a retool. As one would expect with a new coach and major trade, the team went into a death roll and crashed out of playoff contention. But, we still had a franchise player and #1 option in Big Al (19/10) and an all-star candidate in Millsap (17/9). Also got back Harris in the deal who had been an all-star just a few years previous. Missed the playoffs, but we probably would have even HAD Deron stuck around due to his injuries and the tumultuous departure of Sloan. KOC then brought in veterans like Josh Howard and Raja Bell to go along with Hayward, CJ Miles, Favors, etc. The next season, Mo, Marvin and Foye were signed/traded for to replace Harris, CJ, Raja and Howard. The goal was still to make the playoffs.

And that's where we differ. IMO, when you have a playoff-caliber team and replace a few parts and still have a playoff caliber team, I really don't call that a rebuild. There's always roster churn. But that's just my opinion (see next point).

3. So let's call it a rebuild or a retool. Doesn't matter. What I WOULD argue is that the KOC-style rebuild/retool was aborted. Had KOC remained in charge, I think the "retooling" plan was to re-sign Millsap, Carroll and maybe Foye and find a PG to replace Mo. Big Al was gone the day the season ended. Even DL talked about "value shopping" in free agency. IMO, four things changed our plans.

a. KOC had already begun to step aside and Lindsey began to get more power. DL has always championed building through the draft and "not skipping steps."
b. In the early days of free agency, it was clear even mid-tier FA's were getting drastically overpaid.
c. Golden State offered Utah some good assets for using our cap space
d. The 2014 draft was supposed to be epic.

IMO, "c" and "d'" are key. I think what finally convinced the Millers to accept the DL rebuilding plan was knowing the Jazz could get a a pick in the top half of an exceptional draft and also have an additional 1st later in the first round...all by just refraining from signing veterans.

So, call it a rebuild after Deron left. But I think we then have to acknowledge a KOC 'rebuild" is very different from a DL rebuild. And the current Lindsey model is only in it's second year.

 

[Revolution 9]

Why didnt you get a hotter more interesting wife?

 

[Stifle Tower]

Why didnt you get a hotter more interesting wife?

Because then I wouldn't be spending so much time on Jazzfanz.

I think I just started a new Christmas tradition in my family. I was tired of the same ol', same ol' for breakfast so I decided to surprise my wife and daughter and make them a quiche last week. Was so good they requested I make another for Christmas morning. So I've now finished wrapping the gifts, polishing off the Santa cookies and eggnog and and am waiting for the quiche to bake. I know, turn in my "man" card. I've officially jumped the shark (and I think as I did it bit off the "boys').

 

[Jazz Insider]

7th worst record in the NBA. it's only december and already in the double digit win club.

'tankin' he said.

o. okay. if u say so bruh. if u say so.

 

[sgjazzfan]

Jazz need to accumulate more 2nd round picks

Don't the Sixers already have all of them?

 

[silesian]

Does it? Or does it mean they just have to draft better?

All we need is a time traveler or clairvoyant on our scouting team. Back to reality. Every team misses on picks. No team can predict the future. The Jazz have been overall above average in drafting. Would improvement help? Sure would. But it is not as simple as you make it seem ("just draft better")

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Lots of people implying that if we had kept one of Al or Millsap that we would be a for sure playoff team now. I highly doubt it. The top 8 in the West are too good right now to think that we would be a lock for the playoffs if we had kept one or both of those guys.