WI Gubernatorial Recall

[Scat]

Are we supposed to be surprised that people are choosing short-term gains over longer-term gains? Corporations count on people making short-sighted choices.

At least they have a choice now.

 

[Stoked]

So you mean they're like the mafia in a good way?

Look, I'm not here to discuss the history of unions - not interested. But I do find it humorous that people leaving the union after gutting it makes you think that particular union was no good to begin with.

I can't spell it out for you any better than that.

I think people are leaving it for a number of reasons. Some because it was gutted and some because they did not want to be in the union to began with. You both know nothing is so black and white.

 

[One Brow]

Unions are very anti-capatalistic and very monopolistic.

So are corporations.

Look at education. Our quality of teacher has fallen because there is a monopoly on teachers and the unions control the monopoly. Instead of taking advanced math, science and English courses, our teachers in training are taking "how to make a fat kid not feel bad about being fat but instead blame republicans" courses.

The non-union school that operate under the same rules as the public schools (typci8ally charter schools) do not perform any better at teaching children, overall (some are better, some are worse). It is therefore illogical to blame unions. I do not expect that to stop you from doing so.

 

[One Brow]

At least they have a choice now.

Better to choose to be lower middle-class than be forced into the middle-middle-class? Hmmmm...

 

[Scat]

Better to choose to be lower middle-class than be forced into the middle-middle-class? Hmmmm...

It's still a choice, no?

 

[Stoked]

It's still a choice, no?

No damnit no! They know what is better for you and how you should be living than you do. Accept it and do what you are told!

 

[JimLes]

If there were no unions, you could still go out, make a name for yourself, charge more for better work and be wildly successful. You don't need a union to do this.

All well and great if you have a job in the private sector. I don't. My management are politicians. They get elected, and need to get reelected roughly every 3-5 years. I would be at the mercy of their whims and fancies without a union.

 

[green]

All well and great if you have a job in the private sector. I don't. My management are politicians. They get elected, and need to get reelected roughly every 3-5 years. I would be at the mercy of their whims and fancies without a union.

So, now you force them to make policies the benefit you and hurt me?

 

[green]

All well and great if you have a job in the private sector. I don't. My management are politicians. They get elected, and need to get reelected roughly every 3-5 years. I would be at the mercy of their whims and fancies without a union.

This is called life. Most corporations turn over their CEO every 3-5 years. EVERYBODY GOES THROUGH THIS. Do a good job, and you will keep it...most of the time. It's not fair, it's life.

 

[JimLes]

So, now you force them to make policies the benefit you and hurt me?

How does the bargaining power of teachers hurt you, exactly? Am I taking away your ability to open your own schools? Does your private-sector boss give you a pay cut because I got a new collective contract and a raise?

And hell yes I want policies that benefit me and hurt you? What am I supposed to do? Want policies that benefit you and hurt me? The way general population thinks of us teachers, just be happy I don't wish harm upon you.

 

[Stoked]

How does the bargaining power of teachers hurt you, exactly? Am I taking away your ability to open your own schools? Does your private-sector boss give you a pay cut because I got a new collective contract and a raise?

And hell yes I want policies that benefit me and hurt you? What am I supposed to do? Want policies that benefit you and hurt me? The way general population thinks of us teachers, just be happy I don't wish harm upon you.

1. Teacher unions lobby against vouchers. That takes away my ability to potentially send my child to a better school.
2. Teacher unions (unions in general) make it next to impossible to fire bad employees. In your teacher example that makes it more likely that my child gets a bad teacher.
3. Unions (and all unions) get involved in things outside "collective barganing". Such as politics. They organize protests at people homes and places of business. If I am a business owner they are protesting I am losing business.
4. Mandatory particiaption (not all unions). Why should I be forced to give money to people that do not necesarily represnt me. If I want to I can if I do not I should not be forced.

4 ways Unions can "hurt" me. Unions have their benefit but, in my opinion, that use is outwieghed by the harm they are causing becasue of the people running them.

As for the way the general populace views teachers...well maybe, just maybe, there is a reason teachers are viewed that way. Your bullish, over aggresive unions. For evidence of this go no father than the California teachers unions.

 

[green]

1. Teacher unions lobby against vouchers. That takes away my ability to potentially send my child to a better school.
2. Teacher unions (unions in general) make it next to impossible to fire bad employees. In your teacher example that makes it more likely that my child gets a bad teacher.
3. Unions (and all unions) get involved in things outside "collective barganing". Such as politics. They organize protests at people homes and places of business. If I am a business owner they are protesting I am losing business.
4. Mandatory particiaption (not all unions). Why should I be forced to give money to people that do not necesarily represnt me. If I want to I can if I do not I should not be forced.

4 ways Unions can "hurt" me. Unions have their benefit but, in my opinion, that use is outwieghed by the harm they are causing becasue of the people running them.

As for the way the general populace views teachers...well maybe, just maybe, there is a reason teachers are viewed that way. Your bullish, over aggresive unions. For evidence of this go no father than the California teachers unions.

This is where unions have been ruined. Unions were set up to protect good employees. They are now set up to protect their own, and at a very high cost. Being against vouchers is ridiculous. Vouchers are a much better option for kids, especially kids in cities where public schools are failing (again, in part, due to bad teachers being protected).

The biggest problem with unions are their politics. This whole WI thing was started because unions bullied their forced members into signing petitions to get the election redone. It is one thing to make sure you aren't being over worked (and taking a sick day then working 40 hours, but collecting overtime is not overworked), paid fairly (having full health, retirement, and competitive pay with equivalent "private" jobs is not being paid fairly, especially when the "private" worker is paying for all of it. Union/government workers definitely can pay some of their health care/retirement/etc) and good working conditions. That is not what unions are doing (don't believe me, read what unions were receiving in WI, and how much better the state AS A WHOLE is doing now that the unions have been squashed).