Will Okur improve our Rebounding?

[Jazz Spazz]

Without looking up numbers, how does a guy who's primarily a perimeter player on offense and the guy in the paint the most on defense going to help our offensive rebounds?

The same way people talk about wings and guards helping the team with rebounding, especially offensive boards. If he crashes on a shot he will have a better chance of grabbing a board than someone 6-5 would. How many tip-ins, and offensive boards has he had in the past? I seem to remember enough to help. You don't have to be directly under the basket to grab an offensive board.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Players who are good at offensive rebounding tend to be players who are quick or can jump high, they use their ability to beat lazy defensive rebounders to the ball. Memo does not do those things, he boxes out and has solid fundamentals.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The same way people talk about wings and guards helping the team with rebounding, especially offensive boards. If he crashes on a shot he will have a better chance of grabbing a board than someone 6-5 would. How many tip-ins, and offensive boards has he had in the past? I seem to remember enough to help. You don't have to be directly under the basket to grab an offensive board.

Yeah, but most rebounds still fall around the basket. I don't recall Memo being a particularly good offensive rebounder in the first place (maybe he has been when considering his positioning?). Furthermore, him being further away from the basket on offense means there's one less big to grab MOST offensive rebounds. The only thing that could happen to the offensive rebounds with Memo coming back is that they go down. I'm hopeful and 60% confident the defensive rebounds will go up, and right now, that's the biggest thing the Jazz need to be concerned with.

Players who are good at offensive rebounding tend to be players who are quick or can jump high, they use their ability to beat lazy defensive rebounders to the ball. Memo does not do those things, he boxes out and has solid fundamentals.

It's not going to help that there's absolutely no way Memo's any more athletic than he was before the injury. I hope and think you're right about the defensive rebounds part.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

It's a no-brainer. It will help a solid amount...about 1.0 extra rebounds per game on average I would guess.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The 3 point shot is way overrated and it leads to long rebounds and bad transition defense. Something Earl Watson talked about the Jazz being so bad at for so many years. We need to limit that from happening.

That doesn't make any sense but I can't find opponent/defensive transition stats to give my philosophical point statistical teeth.

But I'll continue anyway. Any person shooting a 3 (or spotting up for one) is in BETTER position for transition defense because they're CLOSER to the other team's basket. Additionally, long rebounds take opportunities from the defense to grab a fundamental rebound and gives the offense a better chance to grab a rebound (if we're to indulge the 'long rebounds' argument). If you have everyone on offense closer to the basket and shooting closer to the basket, you not only destroy your ability to run a well-spaced set, the defense also has shorter balls to box out and grab, and there are less people back to stop an outlet pass and subsequent cherry-picked/leaked out point.

The 3-point shot is and has been continually trending because it's ABSOLUTELY PARAMOUNT to play good basketball. The only thing Sloan doesn't like about the 3 is when people that have no business shooting it shoot it too much, and CORNER 3s because of the argument you mentioned. The only shot your argument applies to is the corner 3. It's hardly a coincidence that the five teams that average the most 3-pt shot ATTEMPTS per game have a combined winning percentage of 62.5% and the five teams that average the least 3-pt shot attempts per game have a combined winning percentage of 42%. And that's not an anomaly for this season, you can go down the line through at least the last few years.

Now, that's not to say that you should hoist every 3 you can, but it does say that if you have the personnel and the shot, it's good to take it.

Getting more back to the point, Memo's case is interesting. While he is one of the only reliable shooters on this team (or at least, that HAS been the case), he's also not really in a position to get back on D because he's a snail. It seems obvious to me that having Memo constantly on the perimeter in the past (and not being fast enough to stop anything in transition) and having Brewer constantly inside (and not having good position to defend in transition, besides that he was awful at it), can account for a lot of the Jazz's improved transition defense. However, having Memo on the perimeter doesn't make the transition D worse by itself, it could actually only make it better (which also means you sacrifice other things, like offensive rebounding).

In conclusion, the 3-pt shot is not overrated at all if you can make them. I would argue it's underrated in that context, and Memo changes the context (if he comes back healthy). </tangent>



Addressing the core/initial subject, again, I think Memo will help the defensive rebounding and not the offensive.

 

[Twin Towers]

I am not sure where you come up with that theory but coaches from high school to the pro's have always talked about the longer the shot the longer the rebound. Longer rebounds lead to semi fast breaks. That is known in basketball. There is nothing to prove. Every coach talks about this. And when we are on a semi fast break and we shoot a 3 it is harder to run back on defense when we were just running down for offense. It catches our team off guard because they have to stop there momentum and than run back the opposite direction. While the other team is in a great position to run down the court.

If we shoot a 3 point shot within the offense going in than out than I think the 3 point shot is fine. But when we look to shoot the 3 first that is where we get in trouble. It again leads to long rebounds and gets the opposite team in a great position to get ahead of us. That is why Sloan benched Giricek so many times because he shot 3 point shots on semi fast breaks. But for some reason Sloan lets Okur and Deron do it.

The 3 point shot almost always leads to a longer rebound. I am not sure how anybody can argue that. It has more velocity meaning it has a higher chance of going back farther if missed.

And if there is a long rebound having Okur at the 3 point line or under the hoop is meaningless. If the team has a semi fast break on us Okur isn't in position to get back on defense anyways. He is too slow to get down the court.

I am not saying the 3 point shot is bad but I am saying that when we miss on semi fast breaks it puts us in a worse position to defend. I can't believe I even have to argue this with people on this board. Its basic basketball knowledge.

 

[carolinajazz]

In conclusion, the 3-pt shot is not overrated at all if you can make them.

I think Memo will help the defensive rebounding and not the offensive.

....that's like saying "saving money is great...if you can save it and not spend it!"
At least you got the rebound thing right. Memo is much better at defensive rebounds than offensive rebounds.

 

[carolinajazz]

I am not sure where you come up with that theory but coaches from high school to the pro's have always talked about the longer the shot the longer the rebound. Longer rebounds lead to semi fast breaks. That is known in basketball. There is nothing to prove. Every coach talks about this.

Its basic basketball knowledge.

....so with that in mind, perhaps the reason we are winning more and playing better defense is that we take few 3 pointers, encourage the opponent to take more....and end up with more fast break opportunities ourselves, less fast breaks against us and better chance of getting defensive stops!

 

[NUMBERICA]

I am not sure where you come up with that theory but coaches from high school to the pro's have always talked about the longer the shot the longer the rebound. Longer rebounds lead to semi fast breaks. That is known in basketball. There is nothing to prove. Every coach talks about this. And when we are on a semi fast break and we shoot a 3 it is harder to run back on defense when we were just running down for offense. It catches our team off guard because they have to stop there momentum and than run back the opposite direction. While the other team is in a great position to run down the court.

If we shoot a 3 point shot within the offense going in than out than I think the 3 point shot is fine. But when we look to shoot the 3 first that is where we get in trouble. It again leads to long rebounds and gets the opposite team in a great position to get ahead of us. That is why Sloan benched Giricek so many times because he shot 3 point shots on semi fast breaks. But for some reason Sloan lets Okur and Deron do it.

The 3 point shot almost always leads to a longer rebound. I am not sure how anybody can argue that. It has more velocity meaning it has a higher chance of going back farther if missed.

And if there is a long rebound having Okur at the 3 point line or under the hoop is meaningless. If the team has a semi fast break on us Okur isn't in position to get back on defense anyways. He is too slow to get down the court.

I am not saying the 3 point shot is bad but I am saying that when we miss on semi fast breaks it puts us in a worse position to defend. I can't believe I even have to argue this with people on this board. Its basic basketball knowledge.

When did I argue that long shots don't lead to long rebounds? It's fine if you want to repeat yourself to yourself 10 times, but my entire post is based on that premise. And how does having more players in the back-court not equate to better transition defense?

I'm really not sure if you read my post because you're either not addressing something I did, you're assuming I disagree with you about something when I don't (long shots = long rebounds), you're responding to an argument that I didn't (I said the Jazz should or do look for the 3 in transition???), and you're 'making' points I already did (having Memo back doesn't make a difference with transition D because he's too slow regardless of where he's at). It's hard to have a conversation when one person isn't 'listening'.

 

[Harambe]

I think he will help the offensive rebounding, as with him out on the wing, his defender has to go out there. I'm not sure if Okur's boards will go up, but I think the other guy's will slightly.

 

[Twin Towers]

When did I argue that long shots don't lead to long rebounds? It's fine if you want to repeat yourself to yourself 10 times, but my entire post is based on that premise. And how does having more players in the back-court not equate to better transition defense?

I'm really not sure if you read my post because you're either not addressing something I did, you're assuming I disagree with you about something when I don't (long shots = long rebounds), you're responding to an argument that I didn't (I said the Jazz should or do look for the 3 in transition???), and you're 'making' points I already did (having Memo back doesn't make a difference with transition D because he's too slow regardless of where he's at). It's hard to have a conversation when one person isn't 'listening'.

I never said having more players in the back court doesn't equal better transition defense. I said our transition defense isn't any better having Okur in the back court. He doesn't get down the court in time anyways.

And I will argue that the 3 point shot leads to bad transition defense almost all of the time. You said earlier that only the corner 3 point shot leads to bad transition defense...... And that is why is disagreed and said it almost always does. Your whole argument was about how the 3 point shot can put us into a better position for transition defense because Memo is in the back court? And if it wasn't that why all of the examples?

Its like you post examples but you don't take a position on anything. You just state something but don't back anything you say. You just state it like its an opinion rather than your opinion. Don't give examples to something if your not proving that point.

And I will repeat because you said my comment did not make sense? Which part?

The 3 point shot leads to bad transition defense. It is overrated because it hurts you on the other side of the court.

Sorry its hard to listen to somebody who threatens to

 

[billyshelby]

I have a suspicion that Okur will eventually supplant Millsap in the starting rotation moving Jefferson to the 4. Sloan will then use an essentially 3 man rotation at the bigs. But Memo will come out earlier to let Paul in the game and we'll see him and Jeff get around 35 minutes to Okur's 28. Then he'll close with whichever 2 of the 3 he thinks gives us the best chance.

In answer to the question: Yes, this will improve our rebounding. But as Dark said earlier, only slightly. Rebounding will best improve when the defense is tighter and boxouts are more innate. Memo will still help, though.

 

[NAOS]

I have a suspicion that Okur will eventually supplant Millsap in the starting rotation moving Jefferson to the 4. Sloan will then use an essentially 3 man rotation at the bigs. But Memo will come out earlier to let Paul in the game and we'll see him and Jeff get around 35 minutes to Okur's 28. Then he'll close with whichever 2 of the 3 he thinks gives us the best chance.

In answer to the question: Yes, this will improve our rebounding. But as Dark said earlier, only slightly. Rebounding will best improve when the defense is tighter and boxouts are more innate. Memo will still help, though.

I usually agree with you, but not here. I'd be surprised if Memo gets into the starting lineup.

 

[billyshelby]

I usually agree with you, but not here. I'd be surprised if Memo gets into the starting lineup.

My feeling is Sloan will mostly prefer Sap bolstering the second unit. He'll still get more minutes than Okur and will close games (though that will be all matchup/hot hand). But Okur and Jeff give us more size in the starting lineup. He won't care whether Sap considers it a demotion because the minutes won't change. It won't happen right away, but the only thing that will stop it is Memo getting dealt (LT). It's just a guess on my part. We'll see what happens.

 

[VINYLONE]

I usually agree with you, but not here. I'd be surprised if Memo gets into the starting lineup.

Doesnt Sloan always say that you don't lose your position in the lineup as a result of injury?

 

[Marty McFly]

Doesnt Sloan always say that you don't lose your position in the lineup as a result of injury?

I don't think that applies here. This is a brand new team and Memo very possibly could have been beaten out by Jefferson and Millsap in preseason had he not been injured. I believe he'll have to earn his way back to the starting lineup.

 

[billyshelby]

I don't think it's a matter of being "beaten out." Okur has to fit in somewhere. Sloan might think that he would fit better starting. He might not. He could start Okur next to Sap and bring Jeff off the bench. I doubt he'd do that, but he could. My guess is he thinks Okur is better in the starting lineup and either Jeff or Sap have to slot back to backup. They still get starter minutes, but I'm also guessing Sap is the guy to go "down" because he knows the role and he's not as big.

 

[Beantown]

This thread title makes no sense. Okur's first name is Mehmet........not Will.

 

[Harcher]

I don't think it's a matter of being "beaten out." Okur has to fit in somewhere. Sloan might think that he would fit better starting. He might not. He could start Okur next to Sap and bring Jeff off the bench. I doubt he'd do that, but he could. My guess is he thinks Okur is better in the starting lineup and either Jeff or Sap have to slot back to backup. They still get starter minutes, but I'm also guessing Sap is the guy to go "down" because he knows the role and he's not as big.

I think there are a lot more Carl Landry's then there are Okur matchups who are starting.. (Can't even think of an Okur-a-like) So the idea that Jeff+Sap are different players moreso than Jeff+Okur makes me think that Okur stays as a bench player. Also, that Okur is (percieved) to be such an offensive guy that a "spark" of the bench would be nice. And finally, becuase socially, it is easier to have Okur play a reserve role since he will be doing that for more than half of this season (counting street clothes).

But we'll see. It's a nice problem to have to worry about - too many potential starters on this darn team.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Sorry its hard to listen to somebody who threatens to

I have no idea what that means. I assume it's a typo.

Anyway, I'll let you know my opinion and I'll keep it simple. I don't see how shooting 3s inextricably creates transition opportunities for the other team. A loose ball is still a loose ball and having more players on the perimeter means there are more people to get back to defend the fast-break. The only way that doesn't apply is if you're shooting the 3 from the corner, which is why Sloan doesn't like those. Otherwise, I fail to see how having more people back can make transition D worse, especially since the likelihood of getting an offensive rebound would seem to go up (as boxing out in the paint obviously becomes less effective since the ball is bouncing behind them if it's a long rebound).

As it pertains to Memo, it's rather irrelevant. He is too slow to get back even if he's shooting a 3, but there's no way that could somehow be WORSE than if he was in the paint.

So I guess at the end of the whole thing, maybe the Jazz's offensive rebounds DO go up because of more long rebounds on Jazz shots. 3s are good if you have the personnel, and Memo fits the bill. 3s are not overrated, with the rules as they are, it's absolutely paramount to be able to make them because without that threat, getting baskets inside becomes A LOT more difficult (see also; Brewer/AK-that-couldn't-shoot era Jazz vs. Lakers, a big reason the Celtics lost last year even though they probably would've won in 6 or blown out the Lakers in 7 has Rondo been half of a shooting threat).