Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?

Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?


  • Total voters
    28

Red

Well-Known Member
Those are my reasons I voted for him, and I suspect that its the same for a lot of other people. None of it had to do with Russia.
OK, I appreciate you taking the time to spell out your reasons for supporting Trump.

Sorry for still another "novel", but I'll try and make this my last effort to describe my perspective.

I believe we are a sovereign nation. From Wikipedia: Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

John McCain was very blunt in describing Russian interference in our sovereignty. He called it an "act of war". He was describing it that way in 2016.

I understand that the United States has interfered in the sovereignty of other nations. Some of the impetus behind the exodus from the so-called Northern Triangle of Central American nations can be traced to our own interference there in the 20th century.

Nonetheless, I find I cannot just apply the "what goes around, comes around" perspective to Russian interference in our sovereignty as a nation, even as I have been, at times, an opponent of our own imperial machinations during my lifetime. Too many friends killed, or tormented for the remainder of their lives, because of the Vietnam war, for instance.

Donald Trump fought tooth and nail to not apply sanctions against Russia for their blatant interference in our sovereignty and in the central institution of our political system: our elections. Donald Trump stood before the world, with Putin smiling at his side, at Helsinki, and pronounced he chose to believe Putin when told that Putin and Russia had not interfered in those 2016 elections.

Nobody ever said we need to go to war with Russia. But to not defend the nation he was elected to lead, as the Commander in Chief, was to let down every American who expected our head of state to represent our nation. He failed.

And despite his Big Lie of "total and complete exoneration", and yes, I mean Big Lie in the Orwellian sense, we have every right, as citizens of the United States, to understand the source reasons for this deference to the leader of a mafia state who makes no secret of his desire to weaken Western liberal democracies. Whatever our flaws, including those of our political leadership, (if one chooses to view the Clintons as the epitome of corruption, for example), they are OUR flaws, and we cannot simply lay down meekly while our chief geopolitical foe for the past 70 years, commits, as McCain said, an "act of war": to interfere in our sovereignty as a nation.

I expect our president to act in our interest in the face of such an attack. For reasons of his own, he has consistently behaved as if defending his nation goes against his grain, where Putin and Russia is concerned. I find that unacceptable, and I want to know exactly what is behind this deference. I do not accept his Big Lie.
 

Hotdog

Well-Known Member
OK, I appreciate you taking the time to spell out your reasons for supporting Trump.

Sorry for still another "novel", but I'll try and make this my last effort to describe my perspective.

I believe we are a sovereign nation. From Wikipedia: Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity.

John McCain was very blunt in describing Russian interference in our sovereignty. He called it an "act of war". He was describing it that way in 2016.

I understand that the United States has interfered in the sovereignty of other nations. Some of the impetus behind the exodus from the so-called Northern Triangle of Central American nations can be traced to our own interference there in the 20th century.

Nonetheless, I find I cannot just apply the "what goes around, comes around" perspective to Russian interference in our sovereignty as a nation, even as I have been, at times, an opponent of our own imperial machinations during my lifetime. Too many friends killed, or tormented for the remainder of their lives, because of the Vietnam war, for instance.

Donald Trump fought tooth and nail to not apply sanctions against Russia for their blatant interference in our sovereignty and in the central institution of our political system: our elections. Donald Trump stood before the world, with Putin smiling at his side, at Helsinki, and pronounced he chose to believe Putin when told that Putin and Russia had not interfered in those 2016 elections.

Nobody ever said we need to go to war with Russia. But to not defend the nation he was elected to lead, as the Commander in Chief, was to let down every American who expected our head of state to represent our nation. He failed.

And despite his Big Lie of "total and complete exoneration", and yes, I mean Big Lie in the Orwellian sense, we have every right, as citizens of the United States, to understand the source reasons for this deference to the leader of a mafia state who makes no secret of his desire to weaken Western liberal democracies. Whatever our flaws, including those of our political leadership, (if one chooses to view the Clintons as the epitome of corruption, for example), they are OUR flaws, and we cannot simply lay down meekly while our chief geopolitical foe for the past 70 years, commits, as McCain said, an "act of war": to interfere in our sovereignty as a nation.

I expect our president to act in our interest in the face of such an attack. For reasons of his own, he has consistently behaved as if defending his nation goes against his grain, where Putin and Russia is concerned. I find that unacceptable, and I want to know exactly what is behind this deference. I do not accept his Big Lie.
I can accept that as a valid point of view and understand where you are coming from. Sometimes I am just having a little fun with this, or Trolling as some would say. I too would like to know if he was doing something seriously wrong as president. So I want to know whats in the report as well.
 

One Brow

Well-Known Member
Maybe Im not human, or I am the only person propaganda doesnt work on.
It's entirely possible you have a completely unknown, unexamined, and altered brain structure; that you live without a Type I brain response system and yet can still drive on a Type II only, when for every other person on earth Type II is too slow for activities like walking, driving, etc. It's also possible you are falling into the extremely common fallacy of believing yourself to be rational, when in fact you are reacting without thinking like every one else who has the Type I system.

Sometimes I wonder if this is all real. How crazy people act is nuts.
Agreed.

I believe the economy is doing so well and we skipped the next business cycle because Trump lowered the corporate taxt rate. But you would have to believe in Math to understand that.
Anyone can use math to prove anything. Math is a formal system. It takes the input assumptions and produces an output. I believe the math, but we disagree on the input assumptions.

I dont believe Trump is crooked. What else has he done besides collude with Russia in the dreams of Democrats?
I could put up dozens of links, but if you look into this on your own, you can find it easily enough.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Complete exoneration, right?

The attorney general said he and Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein “disagreed with some of the special counsel’s legal theories and felt that some of the episodes did not amount to obstruction as a matter of law,” but that they accepted the special counsel’s “legal framework” as they analyzed the case.

Barr said Mueller’s report recounts “ten episodes” involving the president and discusses “potential legal theories for connecting these actions to elements of an obstruction offense.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...cc9440-54b9-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
But but but... Assange and Wikileaks are all about transparency! They’re not trying to hurt America and help Russia by helping trump win. They just want transparency. They’re not a political actor, they’re the free press!

 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
These are words of an innocent person if I’ve ever seen it.

 
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Harambe

Well-Known Member
Contributor
The ********* that is the Mueller report.

Collusion isn't a crime. Conspiracy is. The report does reveal that, in secret, members of Team Trump(Manafort certainly) working with Russians(Kiliminik) and trading information in an effort to influence midwest Democrat votes. That seems like a conspiracy to obtain the presidency to me.

Several outlined instances of Team Trump straight obstructing and influencing what witnesses will say.

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf

If Donald Trump were Joe the Plumber, he'd be drawn and quartered. Why isn't he?
 

fishonjazz

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
The ********* that is the Mueller report.

Collusion isn't a crime. Conspiracy is. The report does reveal that, in secret, members of Team Trump(Manafort certainly) working with Russians(Kiliminik) and trading information in an effort to influence midwest Democrat votes. That seems like a conspiracy to obtain the presidency to me.

Several outlined instances of Team Trump straight obstructing and influencing what witnesses will say.

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf

If Donald Trump were Joe the Plumber, he'd be drawn and quartered. Why isn't he?
In before hack says "because he is Teflon Don"

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
 

Hotdog

Well-Known Member
The ********* that is the Mueller report.

Collusion isn't a crime. Conspiracy is. The report does reveal that, in secret, members of Team Trump(Manafort certainly) working with Russians(Kiliminik) and trading information in an effort to influence midwest Democrat votes. That seems like a conspiracy to obtain the presidency to me.

Several outlined instances of Team Trump straight obstructing and influencing what witnesses will say.

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf

If Donald Trump were Joe the Plumber, he'd be drawn and quartered. Why isn't he?
Because he didnt commit crimes.

Why isnt Hillary in jail?
 

firegirl

Well-Known Member
The Mueller report doesn't matter. No one is changing their opinions. Both sides are incapable of seeing beyond their own beliefs.

The end.

Can't we just talk about how great Seinfeld was and share favorite scenes?
 
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